Chinese Flamethrowers: Brief Comments

France Kaiserklein
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Re: Chinese Flamethrowers: Brief Comments

Post by Kaiserklein »

gamevideo113 wrote:They only deal 0.6x to coyotes. 6x only applies to heavy infantry units like musketeers or pikemen.

No, it applies also to ranged infantry units like skirms. Same as falcs.

gamevideo113 wrote:
zoom wrote:Correct. Rajputs could have been less shit, then.

I don't get this, rajputs have the same stats (slightly better actually) as disciplined changdaos yet people say rajputs suck and changdaos are OP. Maybe rajputs are a bit overpriced but i don't think it is a bad unit at all.

I'd like to know who called changdaos OP lol. They're a kind of mix of halb and pike, which means it can't be very good at all. You see them in the chinese units composition only because you always get some of them when you make skirms, and because the 11 changdaos shipment is worth a lot of resources. If china had goons, or even if they just relied on manchus + cav and were able to produce skirms separately, you probably wouldn't see changdaos on the field. Changdaos also happen to be shadow-teched to veteran.
Either way, rajputs are just too expensive, which makes them not cost-efficient, aka shit. Changdaos are cheap as fuck, cheaper than an european pikeman (in terms of villager seconds). Rajputs cost much more, but have barely more hp. Hp is a very important stat for a melee unit; with their musketeer-hp (though they cost almost 50% more then those) they will get sniped really fast.
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Sweden deadrising78
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Re: Chinese Flamethrowers: Brief Comments

Post by deadrising78 »

gamevideo113 wrote:
deadrising78 wrote:
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Who says changdaos are op?

Changdaos are often seen as halberdiers with 5 speed, therefore very strong.

No they are not
Changdaos have 18 attack and halbs has 25... changdaos barely counter cav
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Re: Chinese Flamethrowers: Brief Comments

Post by gamevideo113 »

Kaiserklein wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:They only deal 0.6x to coyotes. 6x only applies to heavy infantry units like musketeers or pikemen.

No, it applies also to ranged infantry units like skirms. Same as falcs.

Oh, my bad
gamevideo113 wrote:
zoom wrote:Correct. Rajputs could have been less shit, then.

I don't get this, rajputs have the same stats (slightly better actually) as disciplined changdaos yet people say rajputs suck and changdaos are OP. Maybe rajputs are a bit overpriced but i don't think it is a bad unit at all.

I'd like to know who called changdaos OP lol. They're a kind of mix of halb and pike, which means it can't be very good at all. You see them in the chinese units composition only because you always get some of them when you make skirms, and because the 11 changdaos shipment is worth a lot of resources. If china had goons, or even if they just relied on manchus + cav and were able to produce skirms separately, you probably wouldn't see changdaos on the field. Changdaos also happen to be shadow-teched to veteran.
Either way, rajputs are just too expensive, which makes them not cost-efficient, aka shit. Changdaos are cheap as fuck, cheaper than an european pikeman (in terms of villager seconds). Rajputs cost much more, but have barely more hp. Hp is a very important stat for a melee unit; with their musketeer-hp (though they cost almost 50% more then those) they will get sniped really fast.

It was some people in the twitch chat, i can't remember very well. Anyway price plays a big role yeah, i guess that's why changdaos don't have a bad reputation. Still people make territorial army and not imperial army to get skirms, so that means changdaos aren't that bad after all (or are iron flails worse?), at least they are decent at scaring cav away.

deadrising78 wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Changdaos are often seen as halberdiers with 5 speed, therefore very strong.

No they are not
Changdaos have 18 attack and halbs has 25... changdaos barely counter cav

Yeah but changdaos have a slightly better multiplier so in the end there is not a huge differece, and changdaos have better speed and better hand resist. Only the dutch have a combat card for halbs, while china has a couple of cards for changdaos.
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Italy Garja
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Re: Chinese Flamethrowers: Brief Comments

Post by Garja »

Changdao are quite good, but it has to do with the fact that are cheap and upgradeable.
Rajput are not bad. But ye they're a bit overpriced and most importantly sepoy just shits on them.
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Re: Chinese Flamethrowers: Brief Comments

Post by Inst »

Thing is, if we're talking about flamethrowers sucking vs skirms, here's a few issues with the alternatives.

First, imperial army is lopsided in favor of Iron Flails. It's 480 food worth of Iron Flails but only 255 food worth of Arquebusiers. The level of skirmisher protection is much less than usually desired, and while it's decent versus a pure dragoon force, it's still suboptimal.

Second, flamethrowers can be trained together with skirms in a sort of classic artillery cost structure; Black Flag Army costs 170 wood and 425 gold. For 340 resources, the only more cost effective way to get skirms is Territorial Army, depending on your need for anti-cavalry, although Changdao are nice insofar as Territorial army is way more effective than Old Han before reforms against pure heavy infantry.

Flamethrower range, imo, is something I really wouldn't want to touch; it's based on how the unit is designed and it makes it quite unique as an ultra-short range pseudo-artillery unit. But I see your point about comparing Flamethrowers to Grenadiers, which is somewhat bad considering that no one actually uses Grenadiers.

Personally, I have no problem with getting Flamethrowers kited. Thing is, they have a pretty nice defensive statline, meaning that every shot thrown into the Flamethrowers is a shot not being thrown at my Chu Ko Nu or Pikemen, and since Flamethrowers are chunky and reasonably fast, you can withdraw damaged flamethrowers to surgeons or for your monk to heal them up afterwards. Most of my greatest successes using flamethrowers involve a early Temple of Heaven for the heal.
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Re: Chinese Flamethrowers: Brief Comments

Post by Inst »

I think I HAVE figured out a way to employ flamethrowers as something more than musket rush stoppers and Forbidden Army escorts.

The trick is simple; in early Colonial, either go for the Castle card or build a Castle. Most importantly, put the Castle deep in the enemy's territory, denying the opponent access to huntables and inducing him or her to attack the Castle. Now what do people most often attack Castles with? Infantry. What excels versus infantry? Flamethrowers.

I don't have access to the game for a month (I'm traveling), but this might give China an alternative opening to the deplorable FF.
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Re: Chinese Flamethrowers: Brief Comments

Post by Kaiserklein »

So many civs just go for cav semi vs china... You're just gonna invest a shit ton of resources into a castle and flamethrowers, and lose all your mass to a guy making 5 or 10 huss and then being age 3 at 8 min or so, and gg
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Re: Chinese Flamethrowers: Brief Comments

Post by P i k i l i c »

Did you read what fei posted about flamethrowers, @Inst ? This is probably your best chance.
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:hmm: AoE logic :hmm:
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Re: Chinese Flamethrowers: Brief Comments

Post by Inst »

IMO, the training time on Black Flag army could be improved, as well as Mongolian Army. Castles cost roughly twice that of a War Academy, and to be frank, the best I've seen from Flamethrowers is when they're used as adjuncts to arquebusiers. Now, this might sound like it's the Arqs taking up all the slack, but in reality, when you build arquebusiers, you have to build them with a unit and the Black Flag army is the closest you'll get to pure skirmisher spam.

I don't actually get what happened to flamethrowers. Were they overnerfed some time in TAD beta? They're units that are mediocre at their main task, which is countering infantry; if it comes to stand-and-shoot vs musketeers, they'll get meleed, and they'll get kited by speed-buffed skirms, and what's more, they have a ton of vulnerabilities. First, unlike skirms, they don't counter light cavalry; in fact, they treat light cavalry like cavalry units and might actually lose a straight exchange. Second, if Asian cavalry all get bonuses against skirm-type infantry, enemy cavalry gets effectively a 3x bonus, higher than your bonus, vs flamethrowers, due to flamethrowers being dependent on their ranged resistance, and having a crap statline.

Diagnosis? Either increase their range straight-up to 18, so they can hide behind a nice pike wall and properly threaten skirms, or decrease their cavalry vulnerability by giving them a nice HP buff and reducing their ranged resistance, and give them 4.75 or even 5 speed to boot.
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Re: Chinese Flamethrowers: Brief Comments

Post by SoldieR »

Legit never thought someone could write so much on this unit lawl
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Re: Chinese Flamethrowers: Brief Comments

Post by sirmusket »

IAmSoldieR wrote:Legit never thought someone could write so much on this unit lawl

Remember that game when you went full flamethrowers, fking pissed the shit outta me lul

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