skirm / goon micro

[JulyBurnsOrange]

Theres a reason I panic when im british and the enemy French or Port player just went up with an FF and all I have is a handful of musk and huss.

The fortress age comp is scary unless you have a superior eco and numbers.

[Kaiserklein]

Why? Musks are supposed to beat cav and hussars are supposed to beat skirms.

Like garja said, goons and skirms are just harder counters. Huss do counter skirms, but because of the range of goons and skirms, the pathing, etc, they don't really hard counter in the end. Musks aren't really an anti-goon unit either.
Anyway skirm goon does beat musk huss, the problem is just that some musks (like sepoys and age 3 ashis) are just so strong that they kinda break the counter system.

skirm goon > musk cav > skirm cav > skirm goon

[SoldieR]

Wow somp made a decent argument.. and prince disagreed with somp

Wtf is going on here

[deleted_user0]

Why? Musks are supposed to beat cav and hussars are supposed to beat skirms.

Like garja said, goons and skirms are just harder counters. Huss do counter skirms, but because of the range of goons and skirms, the pathing, etc, they don't really hard counter in the end. Musks aren't really an anti-goon unit either.
Anyway skirm goon does beat musk huss, the problem is just that some musks (like sepoys and age 3 ashis) are just so strong that they kinda break the counter system.

skirm goon > musk cav > skirm cav > skirm goon

goon cav > skirm cav. musk cav often doesnt really beat skirm cav either lol.

[Hazza54321]

why dont you give skirm wakina speed, the patch isnt making huge gameplay changes anyway

[guyshir]

Why? Musks are supposed to beat cav and hussars are supposed to beat skirms.

skirm goon > musk cav > skirm cav > skirm goon

Skirm goon > Skirm goon

[drsingh]

I think an aggresive skirm musk will counter skirm goon on small maps.
Also considering range and hard counters. Musk artillery should also counter skirm goon, but artillery is easily focussed down.

Goons being unbalanced is the reason most compositions are inferior to skirm goon.
Goon compositions already have mobility advantage and anti artillery factor. They should not be overall better than musk or other anti cav.

Rr nerf was not required. What would be better imo to reduce base range of all ranged cavalry units to 8. Genitours card effect +4 range to 12. The arsenal upgrade as is. Letting musks be a better anticav but immobile and vulnerable to artillery. And cav will have better chance to mele skirms.

Either the above or
Remove artillery multipliers from all ranged cavalry. And anti ranged cavalry negative multipliers from artillery. Will promote 3 unit compositions. Both hand cav and artillery will have better role.

[Kaiserklein]

goon cav > skirm cav. musk cav often doesnt really beat skirm cav either lol.

In small numbers, or with perfect split of the skirms on the musks, skirm cav might do fine vs musk cav. But generally speaking, you're just gonna lose your cav faster than the other guy because he got musks to kill your cav, and then you're left with skirms without cover.
But yes, goon cav works even better. Any anti-cav + cav combo should beat any ranged inf + cav combo anyway, at least theoretically.

[deleted_user0]

It's not breaking the counter system. They have tons of upgrades and skirm goon> musk hus is simply your own illusion. Sepoys have now worse base stats scaled to the cost than normal musket. And I think ashis aswell. Of course they become better if you make wonders and upgrade them with cards.

[deleted_user0]

Many civs can't simply do musk-hus because it requires 2 veteran upgrades instead of 2 shadow upgrades.

[bwinner]

It's not breaking the counter system. They have tons of upgrades and skirm goon> musk hus is simply your own illusion. Sepoys have now worse base stats scaled to the cost than normal musket. And I think ashis aswell. Of course they become better if you make wonders and upgrade them with cards.

What you stupide don't understand, is that we only speak about what they counter in theory. Which 2 unit compotiotion counter musk/huss if skirm/goon doesn't ?
Musk/skirm yeah ofc, but that's the same kind of compo like goon/skirm (which you don't seems to understand)
And what does skirm/goon counter according to you ?

[Garja]

Thing is asian civs are balanced diffrently fron euro/twc civs. They have steonger inf and more specific anti infantry cav. So ye musk cav with india /jap can reasonably beat skirm goon.
Still it depends on mass and ups. Musks are not hard counters to goons but they are more cost effective and still do decent vs both skirm and goons. Skirms on the other hand hard counter musks but do almost nothing to cav (depends on which skirm actually).
From a balance pov anyway, skirm goon > musk cav > skirm cav > skirm goon.

[KINGofOsmane]

It's not breaking the counter system. They have tons of upgrades and skirm goon> musk hus is simply your own illusion. Sepoys have now worse base stats scaled to the cost than normal musket. And I think ashis aswell. Of course they become better if you make wonders and upgrade them with cards.

What you stupide don't understand, is that we only speak about what they counter in theory. Which 2 unit compotiotion counter musk/huss if skirm/goon doesn't ?
Musk/skirm yeah ofc, but that's the same kind of compo like goon/skirm (which you don't seems to understand)
And what does skirm/goon counter according to you ?

everything

[Gendarme]

With all of these countless skirm/goon compositions, why is no one other than Mitoe going for double-stable builds?

[deleted_user0]

It's not breaking the counter system. They have tons of upgrades and skirm goon> musk hus is simply your own illusion. Sepoys have now worse base stats scaled to the cost than normal musket. And I think ashis aswell. Of course they become better if you make wonders and upgrade them with cards.

What you stupide don't understand, is that we only speak about what they counter in theory. Which 2 unit compotiotion counter musk/huss if skirm/goon doesn't ?
Musk/skirm yeah ofc, but that's the same kind of compo like goon/skirm (which you don't seems to understand)
And what does skirm/goon counter according to you ?

You don't have make personal insults because I'm arguing against your illusions. Goon>Hus (heavy counter), Skirm>musk (weak counter in short range combat, which musks get if rightly microed. On the other hand hus>skirm (heavy counter) and musk>goon (weak counter). Musks are supposed to be stronger than goons because goons are cavalry and way faster catching raids. That's the price of speed and therefore pushing muskets between skirms and goons makes a strong counter Therefore you can't argue that goon skirm would be a counter even in theory.

Like I have already mentioned, you think so because very common situation it's vet skirm+goon vs colonial musk hus which makes skirm goon look like a counter.

Skirm-goon is a counter for heavy-goon armies providing also protection versus cav. Counter for musk-hus is pure musk.

According to your logic skirm+goon is a counter vs everything and therefore it's the "right way to play" according to you. And when musk+hus beats you, you complain the game is not balanced.

[Gendarme]

I think that musk/huss vs skirm/goon completely depends on the size of the armies and the surroundings. Small armies favors skirm/goon because by the time the musk/huss gets in range a large share of the army is already dead. Obstacle-free environment also favors the skirm/goon composition as it obviously favors kiting. A clash of two large armies would certainly favor the musk/huss composition - but in the case of skirm/cav archer it is not so clear. However, by the time you have a clash of huge armies the skirm/goon composition would most have hussars added to it which changes everything. It seems that this favors the skirm/goon composition in the general case.

[Garja]

In theory skirm goon > musk huss. Period. It has to do with the fact that it's two hard counter vs one or actually no hard counter at all (huss dont hard counter skirms cause no bonus).
What happens in practice however is that musk huss is all around combo and therefore is easier to micro so it stands a chance (with vet stats of course) plus it grant few other practical advantages (e.g better raiding and more siege).

[Jaeger]

Why? Musks are supposed to beat cav and hussars are supposed to beat skirms.

skirm goon > musk cav > skirm cav > skirm goon

Skirm goon > Skirm goon

Well yes in skirm goon vs skirm goon mirror one skirm goon still beats the other right?

[deleted_user0]

In theory skirm goon > musk huss. Period. It has to do with the fact that it's two hard counter vs one or actually no hard counter at all (huss dont hard counter skirms cause no bonus).
What happens in practice however is that musk huss is all around combo and therefore is easier to micro so it stands a chance (with vet stats of course) plus it grant few other practical advantages (e.g better raiding and more siege).

Hussars don't counter skirms because no multiplier? Okay Garja, thanks for your opinion

[Gendarme]

Show hidden quotes

Why? Musks are supposed to beat cav and hussars are supposed to beat skirms.

skirm goon > musk cav > skirm cav > skirm goon

Skirm goon > Skirm goon

Well yes in skirm goon vs skirm goon mirror one skirm goon still beats the other right?

That's true, but guyshir confused the two compositions. It is obviously Skirm goon < Skirm goon.

[momuuu]

In skirm goon vs skirm goon battles the initial poking is possibly more important than the actual fight. Try to make sure you're watching your army when its moving forward or otherwise attack move it forward or move it back while macroing. Once the fight actually starts, the only real decision is whether or not to use goons aggressively, preserve them or even go all out and put them in melee. This depends on the fight and how it's going. If you're winning hard, or if you lost the skirm battle but have way more goons, its probably worth it to go in melee mode with the goons. If its a close fight try to use your goons a bit in the battle too and use their damage output. If you have more skirms and are winning the skirm fight, preserve goons and try to see if you can force his goons to move in aggressively.

But then again, the poking is more crucial. If you start the fight with more skirms because you did a better job poking then you're going to win the fight. Just make sure it doesn't go at the cost of good macro.

[bwinner]

HI/RC+RI<RI+HC<HC+HI/RI<HI/RC+RI

According to your logic skirm+goon is a counter vs everything and therefore it's the "right way to play" according to you. And when musk+hus beats you, you complain the game is not balanced.

Yeah, really you are bad faith...

Skirm-goon is a counter for heavy-goon armies providing also protection versus cav. Counter for musk-hus is pure musk.

Ok,, so, in your opinion there is no counter system in 2 units composition right ? such a smart player, you have a nice understanding of the game, gratz. I stop speaking with you here, because tehre is just no point, you don't ear anything.

[Hazza54321]

youve pissed off the bloser @deleted_user2 how dare you

[Garja]

In theory skirm goon > musk huss. Period. It has to do with the fact that it's two hard counter vs one or actually no hard counter at all (huss dont hard counter skirms cause no bonus).
What happens in practice however is that musk huss is all around combo and therefore is easier to micro so it stands a chance (with vet stats of course) plus it grant few other practical advantages (e.g better raiding and more siege).

Hussars don't counter skirms because no multiplier? Okay Garja, thanks for your opinion

Yes exactly they dont hard counter them lol. There are other cav with multiplier vs RI did you know? Reason why huss end up countering RI anyway is because RI get negative multiplier vs them. Still tho skirm goon takes down musk huss faster than the opposite.

For the record attack move on skirm vs skirms is shit.

[Gendarme]

@Garja Are you saying that a troop of hussars takes longer to kill a troop of skirmishers than the time the same troop of skirmishers takes to kill a troop of dragoons, all troops costing X villager-seconds?