Longbows in brit mirror

[boks]

Why do people not make longbows in brit mirrors?Is it because they don't upgrade cards in age 2?

[tedere12]

@thebritish

[gamevideo113]

In a brit mirror the players try to get map control as the first thing, and musketeers are a lot better than longbows at that since they are more well rounded and in small numbers they even win against longbows. Also, if you mass musketeers, you can upgrade them, whereas longbows don't have any colonial upgrade. Musketeers are simply a dominant unit in the colonial age, and the most powerful unit combo in the colonial age is musketeers+heavy cavalry. Therefore massing musketeers is more desirable than massing longbows. When you have a good musketeer mass though you should be able to squeeze some longbows in though (colonial age).

[Kaiserklein]

Longbows don't really beat musks, especially if musks can come close and attack in melee. They can't really raid because with their super slow shooting animation they cab only stand and shoot. They don't have upgrades. They are more expensive. They can get caught by huss so you nees to mix anti cav with them.

[deleted_user]

Longbows can't really push. They're good defensively if someone opens VC (and because musk ups aren't in then) and they are good if you have 50+ musk and get musk patching issues. But because they can't kite and because they can't beat carded musks and because they can't push (low siege, vulnerable to 10 musk pops at raxes) you can't do much with them.

If I see my opponent has gone heavy on long bows I don't push into his base, I just mass some musks and go to age 3 earlier than I normally would. Vet musks + falcs + musk combat will wreck anything he has. He can't even push your fb when he scouts the age up because no siege means you get vet musk up and can still pop musks and have the falcs at the tower. Even if you have less economy (i.e. he VC) your tech advantage should be overwhelming.

[fei123456]

But musk with 10-20 longbow do beat full musk.

[Garja]

Habit and easier to macro. Also map.
A good build that either starts tower+musks or 500f + lbows and ends with musk+lbow combo could totally work. Problem is that in most maps you get outplayed because less mobility. Vs cav you can even just makes some pikes but in full musk wars lbows become akward.

[JulyBurnsOrange]

I tend to make 5 LBs or so early on like maybe out of the 700 or 600wood and after ive already made a few batches of musk. Afetr that though i would pretty much just musk mass.
That works well for most MUs tbh not just mirror.

[momuuu]

If you make longbows the other guy can make hussars and be on even footing in terms of army strength. The hussars however also give him raiding options, and they can snare a retreating army giving the mobility advantage to the hussar player. Thats a big reason why this match up is musk only, as I think musk longbow would beat pure musk. Most people have forgotten this however so musk longbow is probably a viable strategy.

[deleted_user]

Musk + longbow > pure musk if and only if the musketeer front doesn't die in front of the longbows. The ratio needs to be like 1:5 lbows to musks or something low. Then that wood is being used for lbows instead of manors -- not ideal.

[gibson]

and go to age 3 earlier than I normally would

lol we all know thats a lie, you going age 3, ill believe it when i see it

[deleted_user]

and go to age 3 earlier than I normally would

lol we all know thats a lie, you going age 3, ill believe it when i see it

It's actually the largest problem in my life.

[momuuu]

Its like when people say xbow lose to musketeers. In a long forgotten past, people would be experimenting with xbow pike vs musk huss in france mirrors. Eventually people realized musk huss build order wins. The most important factor there was that a musk huss bo could easily transition to xbow huss and wipe the floor with the bow pike army, while the bow pike army does not have the capability to do such a switch.

There is also the mobility factor that hussars offer. In such a scenario, a musk huss player can always retreat. Bad angle, sudden opposing reinforcements, mm called, you can just back off and pick your fights and raid when not taking fights. An army without hussars, like a bow pike army, cannot do such a thing. If you start losing the fight theres no retreat.

In brit mirrors nowadays its not viable to mix hussars; people go full musks so adding in hussars compromises the army strength by too much. You can mix a few hussars for raiding, but they wont realistically be able to pin down an army in a winning fight since you will only be able to get a few (otherwise your army will just be too weak). So hussars have gone out of favor.

But as I said, these contemplations have long been forgotten by a generally meta oriented community. Longbows are an excellent unit to mix in, preferably still behind a solid musketeer meatshield. I dont think many players nowadays will realize the strength and advantages that hussars offer, and they might think the musk meta is purely because musketeers are the vastly superior unit and thus stick to pure musk.

[deleted_user]

Here's one way to look at it. Would you still mix longbows if musketeers were 30% cheaper? Military boost cards can function as unit decreased cost cards, no?

With steel traps, placer mines, and gang saw a musketeer is 106.6 VS and a longbow is 127.6 VS. with both 15% upgrade cards that come in that's an equivalent VS of 74.6 for the musketeer, almost half as expensive as a longbow. With both musk ups in and before obvious musk pathing issues it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to make longbows.

[Garja]

On maps where you can't dodge fights musk+lbow just gives decisive early advantage in the early game. Also you're still sending musk ups with musk+lbow.

[deleted_user]

On maps where you can't dodge fights musk+lbow just gives decisive early advantage in the early game. Also you're still sending musk ups with musk+lbow.

You should be able to dodge fights though, that's the benefit of the tower fb. If you both tower fb well then we know what the best build is for that

[Mitoe]

Can't see how musk longbow could possibly work, to be honest. By making longbows you literally just have to forfeit map control completely.

[Garja]

Depends, but ye it works better with 500f and rax in base. Then you timing push.

[momuuu]

Here's one way to look at it. Would you still mix longbows if musketeers were 30% cheaper? Military boost cards can function as unit decreased cost cards, no?

With steel traps, placer mines, and gang saw a musketeer is 106.6 VS and a longbow is 127.6 VS. with both 15% upgrade cards that come in that's an equivalent VS of 74.6 for the musketeer, almost half as expensive as a longbow. With both musk ups in and before obvious musk pathing issues it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to make longbows.

Ehm, your calculations are a little bit off. Its not musketeer combat, the two shipments combined are 15%. I think longbows still offer much either way. Their dps is great, so if you only have a few and go for musk hp you'll be getting value out of them before they can be touched. Their range also allows you to be picking the fight and musk pathing issues are indeed a thing.

Also, if youre going for this sort of style Id imagine you'll be pushing before the musk upgrades are in. The meta actually has been moving towards more aggressive play with 6 musks and 6 longbow shipments and in this case musk longbow shines. I do think that right now this style is at the very least viable. It wont become a meta style ever, due to the reasons I mentioned earlier.

[deleted_user]

You right I fucked it up me almond brain