Counter India

[Mitoe]

No, name the MUs it changes and I'll tell you why it doesn't.

Literally any mu that has an age 2 sepoy being in range of a tc with 10 vils in it and probably any mu where indias making sepoy at all. Come on man I know you're stubborn but surely you're not this stupid? You're the one always preaching about how important break even points and overkill are.

Come on man. Garja's not stupid.

British consulate pretty much negates that, but you're right, the change is not irrelevant; your sepoy are still going to die more easily than before. Is it enough to change the outcome of a game? Sometimes, maybe.

The main strategy that gets affected by this change is the old 12 sepoy rush, which almost no one even does anymore anyway. I think this is what he meant.

[momuuu]

Garja's statement is pretty close to stupid. In any match up where you'd make any amount of sepoys, or any match up where you would slow sepoy rush, india is heavily nerfed.

The sepoy pressure against brits is not as effective anymore and the later sepoy mass is weaker (I think at any point in time your sepoy army is stronger with +10 health than with cheaper houses as that'd only give you like 6 sepoy throughout an average game).
Dutch can hardly be sepoy rushed anymore as consulate rush doesnt really work while a decently fast sepoy rush could really do work.
Japan can hardly be sepoy rushed anymore either.
You cant slow sepoy rush germany anymore and that used to be the go to strategy in the mu.

Theres probably some other examples. Indias not even close to tier 1, thats simply a stupid statement. I dont even recall any tournament game where india does eco style and wins with it.

[lemmings121]

Feels like garja is arguing for the pleasure of argue.

Sepoy beeing 2 shot is irrelevant and "india shits on aztec"... Ok.

See last tournament games, with high level players taking games on the back of sepoy rushes, and bsop losing (or having a really hard time? Cant recal) vs azzy.

Inb4: everybody played wrong, india should use XY build.

Yea, then people now have to change their builds, therefore, not irrelevant.

[momuuu]

Yeah raphael stomped bsops india. He miraculously sort of stabilized but that didnt help in the end.

[Kaiserklein]

Let's face it, sepoy rush was just easy as fuck to perform, and hard to defend, but it probably wasn't the optimal way to play india. Having sepoys with less HP mostly nerfs this strat (doesn't even nerf consulate rush that much, like Mitoe explained). On the other hand, all strats that don't involve mass sepoys and/or that involve more greedy play are buffed.
I don't think it's fair to say that India was nerfed overall. Even somppu now says that India is better than before, and we all know how much somppu loves making sepoys.

[Garja]

No, name the MUs it changes and I'll tell you why it doesn't.

India-Japs where 12 Sepoy rush isnt as good anymore since tcs only need 2 shots to kill a sepoy

It is still good. I still do that. Did that in stream a week ago, works just fine. Afterall sepoy rush is just to bell vills, you're gonna let those 12 sepoy die anyway. Also after first batch you're switching to full gurka so really it's only a difference for the first 12 sepoy.

brits, sioux , german china spain

Brits doesn't chnge at all. You should not rush brits anyway. Play eco vs brits. India gets more eco and better units in the long run, just don't die to timings through the process.
Sioux shits on any civ. In particular with teepees now it's unrushable.
German I think can be dealt with the new karni build. I'm posting thagt in strategy section. Might still be a hard MU. India used to lost that anyway.
China is not hard for India. I think you can win several ways. Rushing or just FFing yourself.

No, name the MUs it changes and I'll tell you why it doesn't.

Literally any mu that has an age 2 sepoy being in range of a tc with 10 vils in it and probably any mu where indias making sepoy at all. Come on man I know you're stubborn but surely you're not this stupid? You're the one always preaching about how important break even points and overkill are.

On EP there is like one MU in which India has to rush and it's vs Jap. And rush still works.

Garja's statement is pretty close to stupid. In any match up where you'd make any amount of sepoys, or any match up where you would slow sepoy rush, india is heavily nerfed.

The sepoy pressure against brits is not as effective anymore and the later sepoy mass is weaker (I think at any point in time your sepoy army is stronger with +10 health than with cheaper houses as that'd only give you like 6 sepoy throughout an average game).
Dutch can hardly be sepoy rushed anymore as consulate rush doesnt really work while a decently fast sepoy rush could really do work.
Japan can hardly be sepoy rushed anymore either.
You cant slow sepoy rush germany anymore and that used to be the go to strategy in the mu.

Theres probably some other examples. Indias not even close to tier 1, thats simply a stupid statement. I dont even recall any tournament game where india does eco style and wins with it.

First, sepoy rush is bad anyway. You don't need to rush brits. Don't need to rush Dutch. Jap still loses to sepoy rush. Rushing Germans didn't use to work either, since they can easily start xbow and counterpush or age up.
Sepoy rush still works in most cases anyway because of other buffs compensate the sepoy nerf. In the end it's the 8-10 min timing that matters not the first rush. first rush is just to run by and disrupt enemy build. You just kill vills and sepoy attack has not been nerfed.

Feels like garja is arguing for the pleasure of argue.

Sepoy beeing 2 shot is irrelevant and "india shits on aztec"... Ok.

See last tournament games, with high level players taking games on the back of sepoy rushes, and bsop losing (or having a really hard time? Cant recal) vs azzy.

Inb4: everybody played wrong, india should use XY build.

Yea, then people now have to change their builds, therefore, not irrelevant.

Sepoy rush is crap. It shouldn't work anyway. And how is sepoy any relevant vs Aztecs anyway. You sholdn't make a single sepoy vs Azzies.

Let's face it, sepoy rush was just easy as fuck to perform, and hard to defend, but it probably wasn't the optimal way to play india. Having sepoys with less HP mostly nerfs this strat (doesn't even nerf consulate rush that much, like Mitoe explained). On the other hand, all strats that don't involve mass sepoys and/or that involve more greedy play are buffed.
I don't think it's fair to say that India was nerfed overall. Even somppu now says that India is better than before, and we all know how much somppu loves making sepoys.

Not hard to defend, but too effective for such pr15 strat. A bit like jan rush.
And ye India is way better now than before. It still wins the same MUs + now can win vs semi FF civs.

[Hazza54321]

I didnt ask how to play the Mus, i stated the Mus its affected in

[momuuu]

Let's face it, sepoy rush was just easy as fuck to perform, and hard to defend, but it probably wasn't the optimal way to play india. Having sepoys with less HP mostly nerfs this strat (doesn't even nerf consulate rush that much, like Mitoe explained). On the other hand, all strats that don't involve mass sepoys and/or that involve more greedy play are buffed.
I don't think it's fair to say that India was nerfed overall. Even somppu now says that India is better than before, and we all know how much somppu loves making sepoys.

I think the house changed was pretty nice towards the consulate rush indeed. But I dont agree with your analysis of the sepoy rush. A slow sepoy rush is just a bit of pressure that keeps the other guy honest. If the other guy js too greedy you do some damage, otherwise he didnt go greedy and you'd still get a nice trade because sepoys didnt suffer from tc fire as much. Against brits for example I thought it was very much so optimal. Just to make sure brits wouldnt boom to hard, you'd either kill some units or just idle him. Didnt seem noobish or ezpz just seemed like a good way to play it.

[yemshi]

I didnt ask how to play the Mus, i stated the Mus its affected in

You really want to see the world burning, don't you?

[Hazza54321]

only by the hand of elifents or should i say elifent stomps

[yemshi]

That does not mean that you are not right.

[macacoalbino]

I didnt ask how to play the Mus, i stated the Mus its affected in

rekt

[Lunatic_Fringe]

Germany beats India pretty well.
If your opponent is not a top player, your age 3 Germany will destroy india.

[LONEWOLF123]

mirror him & outplay.

Yeah. But I don't like India.

i sugest you Ottoman with sea , i won a lot with otto agianst india
if it is about the new pacth i dont know what to suggest
note: you need to rush

[momuuu]

Overall india is pretty hard to counter. Theyre like a swiss army knife; a good rush (10/10, slow sepoy rush ánd consulate rush), a good defensive boom (agra boom with otto consulate), good colonial with a very versatile army (sepoys, gurka, zambs and sowar), a good fortress with great value shipments (7 urumi, 9 sepoy, 8 gurka, 9 zambs, 2 mahout, intervention, 2 siege elephants) and a decent semi ff.

Overall india's main weak point is their semi ff. Even if its buffed on EP I dont think its a great strategy at the moment. It doesnt pack the punch that classic semi FFs like germany's, dutch's or france's semi FFs do have. It also doesnt have the speed to do well against pressure, although you have the defensive boom in that scenario. Now on RE india often goes for a slow sepoy rush to put the semi ff civs off their ideal path, or they go for the all in consulate rush to try to sneak in the victory. On EP, the sepoy rush is not really viable anymore or at least much weaker. The consulate rush is still the same. One other weak point is their cav. Mahouts tank well but are expensive, while sowars dont really have a lot of hp. On EP sowars are buffed so maybe its less of a weakness, I cant really tell.

This leads to the following counters, in my eyes:
- portuguese. Two town centers offer good protection from sepoys. You can affort to send colonial militia to hold off all rush variants quite comfortably. Indias semi ff cant match ports in my opinion. Cassadores are nice at range but weak vs handcav. Yet india doesnt really have strong enough hand cav to contest them imo. Mams are also pretty great against urumi. On EP you dont even need CM to two shot sepoys which makes the mu even better.
- japan. With proper walling Japan can actually hold off indias rushes quite comfortably. They have yumi which dominate the sepoys and overall just reign supreme in colonial and fortress. They'll outscale india and india will struggle to deal with yumis as sowars suck. If india opts to age, japan can age too at which point yumi will become an even bigger problem. On RE walls are slightly stronger so Japan is a better counter, but they do well even on EP.
- otto. Otto's colonial army is actually stronger than indias as india doesnt have much against otto's abus guns. A colonial timing beats india, as otto gets a larger mass and a stronger army. Its easy to fuck up this push though. FF also works as otto, india cant really beat that in colonial and theyre too slow to age up and stop it with siege elephants. On EP otto is much worse (rip otto really) but they probably still do well vs india. On no TP maps otto is shit.
- France. France is said to counter india. Tanky CDB nullify any early sepoy rush as its just too hard to kill villagers and france just steamrolls india in age 3. In the recent years india has opted to consulate rush france. This deadly all in is really hard to hold as france but it is doable. If theres no TP or a lot of livestock, I think this match up might be pretty even. Otherwise france does win, but it is a hard one to play.
- germany. Germany doesnt hold a consulate rush or slow sepoy rush easily but they can hold it. People used to go slow sepoy rush against germany (I assume because consulate rush was worse) so I think on EP germany is a bit better against india as the go to option was nerfed.
- dutch. This is only a counter on EP. Dutch already countered india with the buffs on EP; skirms allowed you to hold their rush and the semi ff just outscales india. I wouldnt say it was a complete stomp at all though. After the sepoy nerf, india cant actually pressure dutch anymore so they just cant stop them from going 5 banks and roflstomping india. Again, EP only.
- RE iro is super OP and beats basically everything. Wouldnt know how to play this exactly, Im shit at iro.

[gibson]

Tbh jap doesn't even need to wall vs slow Sepoy on ep, all you need is 5 units and a set of mm and you can hold slow sepoy quite easily without losing vils, although if you age late as jap it's possibly necessary.

[momuuu]

Probably right. But why not? Probably going to be worth it and you'd be rather safe than sorry I suppose. Against slow sepoy rush you probably dont need to be very diligent about it.

Also I was mistaken in saying japan does worse on EP. Yes walls are nerfed but for a second I forgot that sepoy rush is dead.

[gibson]

well I dont because I personally hate walls, but yea it doesn't really make sense not to. On re its probably smart especially, but on ep it doesn't really matter as long as you drop a rax right when you age. Even if you wall you can't really do the late 600w double rax cause 12 sepoy and 2 elephants take down a 1500 hp wall real fast and you cant really afford to be belled up all game.

[Garja]

Vs Jap wall or not it doesn't change shit. You just rush anyway and force reaction (if you find wall you siege wall). He will make/send units prematurely or even have vills in TC (because yumi won't be out yet) and that's enough of damage. From there India follow up just outscales Jap and since you're controlling the game from the start (and you're on otto cons) you shoudln't get raided. Then with map control you can just siege shrines while making units or aging up. If he pushes out you will always have enough units.

Vs ports you don't obviously make sepoy, let alone run them under TCs. Or do you musk rush with other civs? Just boom yourself as much as he allows you. India has easy time booming hard and dropping additional TCs (wonder gives 800w) so no need to rush. Gurka and zambs are just as good as cassas and goons. And for the record sowar shits on port combo if they dont have huss or something else to block.
Otto might still beat India but with both jan and abus nerfed is much easier to hold even without specific build (e.g defensive agra full gurka, etc. usual stuff).

Dutch doesn't counter India because it's not as fast as Fre/Ger and it is also not challenging in their fortress combo. They do have superior skirms and more lasting spam than Fre/Dutch but that's not enough to beat an India player that knows how to deal with that.

[gibson]

india outscales port and jap chunfirmed!

[tedere12]

On RE patch I had the most success against India with aztecs. I used builds like 700 wood 3 warrior priests 5 vills and then maces or 700 600 wood 3 warrior priests and then maces, warrior priest booming and shipping vills/ researching stagecoach at the same time. Basically a contain build which gives you a nice mass and you can use unit shipments to hold the push or remass, which can be great since aztecs have a hard time remassing units. I'd like to hear opinions on this approach, I think diarouga and hazza told me it is a decent strategy

[Garja]

Coyo/mace with stageocach is basically best standard Aztec build so ye it can be challenging for India. But with perfect play India holds and then autowin with better eco/better combo. Basically India only loses if the contain lasts enough to run out of mines. Another way for India to lose is if Aztecs sneaks an age up and India doesn't react properly because then Azzies unlock lot of new stuff and can again compete. If India ages up as well it's again the same thing.

[momuuu]

Fuck me I just realized I forgot aztec. Such a big post yet so incomplete.

[momuuu]

Btw garja you really live in a fantasy world, dont you. India outscales japan lol, aztec lose to india...

[rsy]

Hey at least he had some points in his post. I respect him for standing up for his views and arguing with the sheeples.

As for india v aztec I recall mitoe having similar thoughts to garja where he said india beats azzy