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China dock FF

Posted: 08 Jan 2018, 02:23
by momuuu
As of EP 4.0 fishing boats have been reduced in cost to 70 wood. To compensate for this buff, schooners was nerfed. The asian equivalent was not changed in terms of its cost reduction though and now makes fishing boats go down to only 50w plus it gives a dock rickshaw (saving you a valuable 200w). This card can be smoothly incorporated into the china FF build order which results in a faster, yet more economical FF.

Instead of doing the slow thing of chopping 100w for a second village, to then ship the northen refugees card (granting 3 vills), I think its possible right now to only get 1 village, ship the dock card and then use the remaining 100w to get two boats. Any wood treasure can simply be converted into more fishing ships and you can chop with a few vills to get more boats. 50w boats are obviously great as European civs would even go for schooners to acces those, but schooners didnt give anything in the short term. The asian variant gives you a free dock with it, thus smoothly incorporating this into the standard build orders is easily done.

The result is that youre quicker to age 3, with more eco (and you actually save villager seconds as you only need 3 vills on the wonder for a smooth variant) in the forms of fishing ships and, if you please so, the option to train more fishing ships at a really good price (50w for 1 vill is great really, its on par with stagecoach in terms of investment cost and much better than banks for example). The only downside is that you only have 1 village and thus are more susceptible to rushes. On the other hand, unraidable villagers are pretty nice against rushes and china can get extra villages in time with 700w.

I felt like sharing this. It could actually be a top build order.

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 08 Jan 2018, 03:19
by Mitoe
I kept thinking dock could be good to add a few extra vills with China, but for some reason I always thought I would have to chop an extra 100w for the dock instead of just sending a dock rickshaw. Not sure how I didn't think of this.

Seems like a decent build, and while I'd hesitate to call it a top build order, I'm sure there are plenty of matchups where it could be a good option. Seems like the age time is the main selling point of this BO. Especially if you happen to get a few solid wood treasures.

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 10 Jan 2018, 06:06
by IntrepidExplorer
Wow, that's genius. Thanks Jerom!

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 12 Jan 2018, 01:52
by noissance
can this build work with japan as well? with the dock wagon i mean...

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 12 Jan 2018, 23:09
by momuuu
noissance wrote:can this build work with japan as well? with the dock wagon i mean...

Probably the worst one of the bunch, as they are set if they make it to lategame at all anyways.

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 18:06
by yurashic
Yeah it is a good build, I do the same on RE but I chop 40 wood to make 2 boats in age 1. EP buffed it a lot.

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 19:59
by Mitoe
Jerom wrote:
noissance wrote:can this build work with japan as well? with the dock wagon i mean...

Probably the worst one of the bunch, as they are set if they make it to lategame at all anyways.

I think it can work just fine with Japan to be honest. If you compare the value of a 50w fishing boat to a 75w-97w shrine, you're getting a lot more out of the fishing boat.

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 20:03
by yemshi
How would one get 97w shrines?

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 21:01
by WickedCossack
Someone did this strat this tournament on indonesia, I thought it was goongoon but I can't seem to find the game.

Anyone remember who it was?

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 21:16
by zoom
East Indiamen was changed. From -30w to -20w.

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 21:36
by deleted_user
Sioux water is now OP too

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 21:38
by Kaiserklein
The build is probably good in some cases. The problem is that I'm not sure going for a TP start isn't better than getting this eco boost. Being able to get a unit shipment after 700g to defend a rush/raids, or being able to ship 700w after 700g while still having always a shipment ready upon fortress, is probably more valuable whenever facing a rather aggressive civ. And if you're facing a greedy civ, you might want these shipments yourself to apply pressure. But maybe it's the way to go on a no TP map.
Also I'm afraid of what happens in case of a 2 caravels shipment.

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 22:19
by Mitoe
yemshi wrote:How would one get 97w shrines?

Is that not the cost of a shrine with Kami but no Port consulate? Or maybe it's 93w. Not sure. I always get the shrine costs from the old AS FP confused with the current patch.

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 13 Jan 2018, 23:51
by sirmusket
Mitoe wrote:
yemshi wrote:How would one get 97w shrines?

Is that not the cost of a shrine with Kami but no Port consulate? Or maybe it's 93w. Not sure. I always get the shrine costs from the old AS FP confused with the current patch.

Ya it's 93w without port conso, but with karni.

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 14 Jan 2018, 06:29
by yemshi
That's was not the question though.
How would you get the dock rikshaw for 50w boats AND kami? You'd have to trade off your port consulate for a TP. I mean, you could but if you TP I don't think you can be as passive. Besides with boat production you would get out maybe to two shrines in transition.

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 15 Jan 2018, 19:30
by macacoalbino
Kaiserklein wrote:The build is probably good in some cases. The problem is that I'm not sure going for a TP start isn't better than getting this eco boost. Being able to get a unit shipment after 700g to defend a rush/raids, or being able to ship 700w after 700g while still having always a shipment ready upon fortress, is probably more valuable whenever facing a rather aggressive civ. And if you're facing a greedy civ, you might want these shipments yourself to apply pressure. But maybe it's the way to go on a no TP map.
Also I'm afraid of what happens in case of a 2 caravels shipment.


700res killing 300 that paid for some of its own cost is ok, as long as the caravels are not useful for anything else.

You can also ship 2 vels for defense and have defenders advantage if you dont want to give up the water for some reason.

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 09:23
by Kazamkikaz
Mitoe wrote:
yemshi wrote:How would one get 97w shrines?

Is that not the cost of a shrine with Kami but no Port consulate? Or maybe it's 93w. Not sure. I always get the shrine costs from the old AS FP confused with the current patch.

# stop patching the game, 3 years from now, tc will cost 350w, banks have 5000 hp, cheaper boat card will make it cost 10w, rax and stable cost 150w etc just destroying the aoe3 dificulty and give some civ more advantage, alot re maps sometimes hv water in EP version u dont seen anything about sea, some RE maps hv tp line, in EP no, in re some maps hv native, EP no
WTF. :mad: :idea:
#STOP MAKING PATCHS PLZ

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 10:57
by Mitoe
Kazamkikaz wrote:# stop patching the game, 3 years from now, tc will cost 350w, banks have 5000 hp, cheaper boat card will make it cost 10w, rax and stable cost 150w etc just destroying the aoe3 dificulty and give some civ more advantage, alot re maps sometimes hv water in EP version u dont seen anything about sea, some RE maps hv tp line, in EP no, in re some maps hv native, EP no
WTF. :mad: :idea:
#STOP MAKING PATCHS PLZ

I am incredibly confused.

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 11:10
by Garja
you hv no clue

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 11:17
by gamevideo113
Mitoe wrote:
Kazamkikaz wrote:# stop patching the game, 3 years from now, tc will cost 350w, banks have 5000 hp, cheaper boat card will make it cost 10w, rax and stable cost 150w etc just destroying the aoe3 dificulty and give some civ more advantage, alot re maps sometimes hv water in EP version u dont seen anything about sea, some RE maps hv tp line, in EP no, in re some maps hv native, EP no
WTF. :mad: :idea:
#STOP MAKING PATCHS PLZ

I am incredibly confused.

He is probably more confused than you

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 15:30
by edeholland
yemshi wrote:That's was not the question though.
How would you get the dock rikshaw for 50w boats AND kami? You'd have to trade off your port consulate for a TP. I mean, you could but if you TP I don't think you can be as passive. Besides with boat production you would get out maybe to two shrines in transition.

I think Mitoe was comparing whether 93w shrines are better or 50w are better, because you can only pick one of them. So you don't have to choose whether to make a 50w boat or a 93w shrine, but you have to choose whether to send Kami or the dock card.

Re: China dock FF

Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 16:41
by Darwin_
I think Kaiser is totally right about TP's being superior, but there are a few new maps, like Alaska, where builds like this would work quite nicely. I would probably almost never do the fishing build on a map with a TP, as getting the TP and then shipping 1k wood first in age 3 for an extra tc or two is probably better eco-wise.