Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

United States of America Inst
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Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Inst »

Just wondering, shouldn't it be possible to counter OHR spam with just mass cavalry? I'm running sims and I get the feeling this should be possible.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by deleted_user »

Technically, not cost effectively, not anywhere near cost effectively.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by deleted_user »

Hazza54321 wrote:ohr?

old han reforms

r u smoking :export: ?
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by spanky4ever »

deleted_user wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:ohr?

old han reforms

r u smoking :export: ?


and on and on the sputidness goes on :mad:
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Inst »

SirCallen: I put 28 Hussars ( 8213 VS) vs 36 Qiangs and 36 Chu Ko Nu (8400 VS). Hussars are winning every time. Now if I could only figure out how to enable OHR and Imperial Upgrades in the Scenario Editor...

One other possibility is that it's a scaling issue; i.e, small engagements between pikes and hussars favor the pikes, but once the pikes are getting pwned by pathing, the Hussars take over.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Can't ever fight old han pikes with cav...
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Garja »

Besides math being probably off (didn't really check but I would be surprised otherwise), this is one of those situation where experience is just worth more than pure math. There is no way that pure cav (except maybe for treaty scenario gendarms) is going to beat reformed OH with any semblance of micro.
28 equally upgraded hussars are not going to beat 36+36 choku/pikes.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by zoom »

Try mass ranged infantry, unless you're French – or Spanish.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by gamevideo113 »

Yesterday In a game i played my imperial heavy cannons were dying to reformed old han... Go figure hussars :cry:
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

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Post by dave_12 »

I usually go RMT against OHR. Lots of people say HMC is best against OHR, but I think RMT works better
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Inst »

Tried 50 chuks and 50 pikes vs 50 life guards, or 17500 VS vs 14666 VS. OHR came out ahead, but reinforcements cleared the remainder. So cav (preferably with artillery support) is good enough vs OHR spam.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Inst »

Garja wrote:Besides math being probably off (didn't really check but I would be surprised otherwise), this is one of those situation where experience is just worth more than pure math. There is no way that pure cav (except maybe for treaty scenario gendarms) is going to beat reformed OH with any semblance of micro.
28 equally upgraded hussars are not going to beat 36+36 choku/pikes.


It's very tight, but if you have an eco advantage, you'll come out ahead. In tests, typically you have 5 hussars left, so it's a very tight fight.

This is sort of like Chinese using Forbidden Army to counter cavalry. In theory, it shouldn't work, in practice, the Iron Flails and Meteor Hammers form a wall stopping them from reaching your skirms and distracting from your Changdao.

Maybe the best counter is cannons + cav; remember that the 75% ranged resist on cannons basically means the pikes have a x4 multiplier vs cannons, so they're hitting your meatshield when attacking cav. And the cav is very good at tanking chuk fire, so while reinforcing endless streams of cav, your cannons are doing the killing.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Inst »

Also, this won't work with Naginata Riders, Sowars (it goes without saying), or Forbidden Army. Tested it, there was no way for Iron Flails and Meteor Hammers to break the pike wall on equal VS. Hussars, Gendarmes, and Lancers, on the other hand... Just remember, if you're doing this, the objective is to kill the pikes with your cav. China can't reinforce pikes by themselves without a shipment, so eventually they end up with a huge blob of chuks that's not doing much against heavy cavalry. As long as you're not using infantry or light cavalry, let your opponent get tons of chuks that do no damage.

Also, China can micro-counter by putting their chuks (believe it or not) into melee and tanking damage for the pikes. Every time the chuks start tanking for the pikes, the hussars start losing. Every time the chuks are doing ranged attacks, the hussars win.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Garja »

Cannon+cav surely counter OH but still loses cost wise. Pure cannon as well.
The way you micro choku pike vs pure cav is to put chokus in front and get as many free kills as possible while kiting, then let cav actually engage on chokus while pikes surround cav. With pikes in front obviously you gonna lose the battle as you're virtually figthing with just pikes vs cav.
It is not a micro trick, it is more like the correct use of bow/pike combo vs any combo with cav.
For the very same reason, when fighting pure musks, you put pikes in front (cover mode) to tank shots while bows deliver damage.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by lemmings121 »

Inst wrote:SirCallen: I put 28 Hussars ( 8213 VS) vs 36 Qiangs and 36 Chu Ko Nu (8400 VS). Hussars are winning every time. Now if I could only figure out how to enable OHR and Imperial Upgrades in the Scenario Editor...

One other possibility is that it's a scaling issue; i.e, small engagements between pikes and hussars favor the pikes, but once the pikes are getting pwned by pathing, the Hussars take over.


i think the problem is that you are comparing colonial units in cenario, in a real game you will probably be in fortress, so its actually veteran huss vs guard oldhan + op ohr card
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Inst »

Ehhh, I redid the math, fully-carded British Life Guards should match fully-carded OHR for cost, even if the chuks and pikes are merged in. The important thing is to remember to hit the pikes whenever possible, because once the pikes are down, the chuks are toothless. The equivalency ratio should be about 3.5 hussars per 3 chuks 3 pikes post OHR.

The Dutch, Portuguese, and Ottomans don't have enough cavalry cards to match OHR with cavalry, unfortunately. Spanish, Germans, French, and Brits, do.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Inst »

lemmings121 wrote:
Inst wrote:SirCallen: I put 28 Hussars ( 8213 VS) vs 36 Qiangs and 36 Chu Ko Nu (8400 VS). Hussars are winning every time. Now if I could only figure out how to enable OHR and Imperial Upgrades in the Scenario Editor...

One other possibility is that it's a scaling issue; i.e, small engagements between pikes and hussars favor the pikes, but once the pikes are getting pwned by pathing, the Hussars take over.


i think the problem is that you are comparing colonial units in cenario, in a real game you will probably be in fortress, so its actually veteran huss vs guard oldhan + op ohr card

OHR is more of a problem in treaty, no? But I agree that Vet Hus vs Guard Old Han is not going to be cost effective.

One problem is that you have to fully card Cav to check Old Han, though.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by lemmings121 »

Inst wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:
Inst wrote:SirCallen: I put 28 Hussars ( 8213 VS) vs 36 Qiangs and 36 Chu Ko Nu (8400 VS). Hussars are winning every time. Now if I could only figure out how to enable OHR and Imperial Upgrades in the Scenario Editor...

One other possibility is that it's a scaling issue; i.e, small engagements between pikes and hussars favor the pikes, but once the pikes are getting pwned by pathing, the Hussars take over.


i think the problem is that you are comparing colonial units in cenario, in a real game you will probably be in fortress, so its actually veteran huss vs guard oldhan + op ohr card

OHR is more of a problem in treaty, no? But I agree that Vet Hus vs Guard Old Han is not going to be cost effective.

One problem is that you have to fully card Cav to check Old Han, though.


ok i didnt realise this was about treaty, nvm my post then :P

in sup we also see oldhan sometimes, like on texas.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Inst »

I'm more bored and just theorycrafting / mathcrafting for fun. But the idea that pure cav can check OHR is pretty interesting and I think people need to seriously consider it. That said, 120 pop OHR is extremely strong; to check with cavalry, you'd need 140 food worth of heavily-carded hussars to just match the opponent.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Inst wrote:Ehhh, I redid the math, fully-carded British Life Guards should match fully-carded OHR for cost, even if the chuks and pikes are merged in. The important thing is to remember to hit the pikes whenever possible, because once the pikes are down, the chuks are toothless. The equivalency ratio should be about 3.5 hussars per 3 chuks 3 pikes post OHR.

The Dutch, Portuguese, and Ottomans don't have enough cavalry cards to match OHR with cavalry, unfortunately. Spanish, Germans, French, and Brits, do.

If you want we can try it in real game soon. We enable cheats and get all techs/cards in. I go old han you go huss ok?
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Inst wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:
Inst wrote:SirCallen: I put 28 Hussars ( 8213 VS) vs 36 Qiangs and 36 Chu Ko Nu (8400 VS). Hussars are winning every time. Now if I could only figure out how to enable OHR and Imperial Upgrades in the Scenario Editor...

One other possibility is that it's a scaling issue; i.e, small engagements between pikes and hussars favor the pikes, but once the pikes are getting pwned by pathing, the Hussars take over.


i think the problem is that you are comparing colonial units in cenario, in a real game you will probably be in fortress, so its actually veteran huss vs guard oldhan + op ohr card

OHR is more of a problem in treaty, no? But I agree that Vet Hus vs Guard Old Han is not going to be cost effective.

One problem is that you have to fully card Cav to check Old Han, though.


Even in treaty full cav doesn’t beat the ckn/Pike composition. Besides that, any decent player would mix in china cav as a meat shield vs full cav, or even keshiks.
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Hazza54321 »

#1 tr player has spoken
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Re: Can't you counter OHR with just Cav?

Post by Goodspeed »

Even if your cav are fully carded, and even if they then cost effectively beat old han reformed, there is still no reason not to have a couple of skirms or cannons in your army comp.

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