MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

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MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

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Post by kami_ryu »

Welcome to MU of the week. Every week a thread will be opened where we go over a certain match, set on a certain map. Hopefully the discussion will be in depth and top players will share their insight. Replays are definitely welcome so that people may support what they have to say. To make things even more interesting and engaging, we'll set the match-up on a certain map.

This week's featured match-up is Germans versus French, the map is Cascade Range.

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You can vote on next week's thread here: https://goo.gl/forms/aJaEGXaIIxYi19kO2

You can find a list of ESOC maps here: maps.php

Here the match up table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

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Welcome! Credit for this idea goes to @lemmings121 as well as @musketeer925 & @BrookG building upon it. They are the masterminds behind this pretty nice idea!
Germany amiggo1999
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by amiggo1999 »

Terrible map for both (not many mines for ger, and shit hunts for fre + no tp's), but ger>fre, so it favours ger i'd say.
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

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Post by kami_ryu »

I would say the lack of TPs would penalize Germany much more than it would France. I think France has the upper hand here but I'm not quite so sure myself.
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by amiggo1999 »

Well france also wants TP, but you're right it penalizes germany harder, which makes their age 3 significantly less viable, and in age 2 france does quite well
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

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Post by lemmings121 »

Imo fre goes samwise build, and germany just dies
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Austria Jerimuno
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

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Post by Jerimuno »

gotta pull an iamsoldier on this map, maybe some xbow many dops and a couple uhlan can do fine in age 2 on EP vs france
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by deleted_user0 »

nat rush with fre, nootka hussar rush ez win. gg no re.
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by lemmings121 »

For real, no idea how germany survives a samwise build here. maybe start 700w 3sw double rax? but bow pike is so trash it appears to be just playing on fre hands to do that.
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by Forjustice »

dop!
France Kaiserklein
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Mitoe and I will maybe play this mu on this map and rec it
But it should be france favoured there, because they don't suffer as much as germany from the lack of TP, and because low resources also favour france: better colonial play because they have musketeers, and better mapcontrol because they have cdbs ready to fight on hunts if needed.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Italy Garja
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by Garja »

Lack of TP is worse for Germans but traditionally Germans have better early colonial play thanks to free ulhans and in general more impactful shipments. I'm talking about stuff like tower rushing of course, not passive eco play.
French have muskets and cdbs for later but I think as long as Germans control the game it is possible to deny those advantages.
Low hunt is better for Germans, but the map is also low mine. In theory French also have up for xbows if the game goes long enough for coin units not being trainable anymore.
This map has good nats and that's certainly favors French. Besides map control, Nootka provide a tech for vill hp which makes cdbs even stronger and Klamath have a tech for food crates which can help later on. Both civs should consider spice trade card imo, but French have probably easier time fitting it in the deck.
Caravel drop is also valuable because in both lakes generally cover at least one mine.
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by Kaiserklein »

Tower rush against france is realistically suicide though, just like any other kind of infantry rush from germany. huss + mm or cdbs can clean everything up so easily. And then when france gets a large enough mass of musks, there is not much germany can do to win in colonial.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by kami_ryu »

replays yes plz
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Italy Garja
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by Garja »

Huss+mm shouldn't clean it up at high level of play because the rushing player is not overcommitting and his micro is going to be up to the task. Then if cav start player doesn't succeed in punishing a proxy start he will be without map control and with more res sunk due to the cav start.
I agree when musk spam becomes a thing it gets really hard for Germans, altho dopp HP boost widens up the window for Germany to keep control. Ulhan HP nerf sucks in this case.

For the record, if French player does normal eco stuff proxy tower+stable with 5 ulhans first card is likely going to rek it. Just to say that are lot of side strats to consider.
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by princeofcarthage »

Kaiserklein wrote:Mitoe and I will maybe play this mu on this map and rec it
But it should be france favoured there, because they don't suffer as much as germany from the lack of TP, and because low resources also favour france: better colonial play because they have musketeers, and better mapcontrol because they have cdbs ready to fight on hunts if needed.

If you wouldn't mind, will you send the rec so I can cast it before next weekends Fantastic Friday or whatever it will be called :P
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by Hazza54321 »

Kaiserklein wrote:Mitoe and I will maybe play this mu on this map and rec it
But it should be france favoured there, because they don't suffer as much as germany from the lack of TP, and because low resources also favour france: better colonial play because they have musketeers, and better mapcontrol because they have cdbs ready to fight on hunts if needed.

Dont you think mitoe the number 1 player needs more competition
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by Mitoe »

Hazza54321 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Mitoe and I will maybe play this mu on this map and rec it
But it should be france favoured there, because they don't suffer as much as germany from the lack of TP, and because low resources also favour france: better colonial play because they have musketeers, and better mapcontrol because they have cdbs ready to fight on hunts if needed.

Dont you think mitoe the number 1 player needs more competition

I do, yeah, but occasionally I need to just assert my dominance I think so that people don't start getting the wrong idea.

@Kaiserklein play tomorrow? (Today? :hmm: )

But actually, I think it might still be close. I remember having some close games with Irishfaithful on this map and matchup a while back, although he did end up winning in the lategame because French units outscale German units.
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by Kaiserklein »

Yeah we can play this later today
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by tedere12 »

germany is not even that bad on age2 vs france imo. Pretty fair I would say but france should have an advantage later on because of the musketeers. Of course not having tp is worse for germany because they need more xp for their shipments. I'd musk hus as france and maybe age a bit later. As germany, I'd probably try to trap my opponent and get a good surround with dopp uhlans
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by lemmings121 »

I dont see how a dop lands a single atack vs a pr25+ player.. maybe if you make 10 dops you can charge them, lose 8 before the fight, and have 2 engaging the musks
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Italy Garja
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by Garja »

it takes 11 musks to.kne shot a dopp, with 4.5 speed they close up quite well
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by deleted_user0 »

Garja wrote:Lack of TP is worse for Germans but traditionally Germans have better early colonial play thanks to free ulhans and in general more impactful shipments. I'm talking about stuff like tower rushing of course, not passive eco play.
French have muskets and cdbs for later but I think as long as Germans control the game it is possible to deny those advantages.
Low hunt is better for Germans, but the map is also low mine. In theory French also have up for xbows if the game goes long enough for coin units not being trainable anymore.
This map has good nats and that's certainly favors French. Besides map control, Nootka provide a tech for vill hp which makes cdbs even stronger and Klamath have a tech for food crates which can help later on. Both civs should consider spice trade card imo, but French have probably easier time fitting it in the deck.
Caravel drop is also valuable because in both lakes generally cover at least one mine.


yup. klamath good unit actually. you can get nootka vil hp, pioneers and great coats, and your vils have 100% more hp. pull 12 of them, and it's like having 5 mams in the fights worth of tanking hp. and actually, they have decent dmg output as well. like 4 mams worth. There's no way germany can hold that timing.
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Bavaria j_t_kirk
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by j_t_kirk »

No MU of the week this week? :cry:
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by Rikikipu »

Can the rec be posted here please ?
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Re: MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

Post by lemmings121 »

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