MU of the week: Germans versus French on Cascade Range!

[kami_ryu]

Sorry for the late thread guys, I got busy this week and this completely left my mind

[britrouga]

Interesting MU, I have no idea how this goes on this map. I guess the ger goes for a bow/dopp build and raids, while the fre goes for musk/bow/huss. France should probably win a colonial war because they have better units and because cdb are strong in this kind of game.
France can also probably go for a 4cdb/700c musk semi ff into vet musk/canons, that would be interesting.
Does anyone want to play ger vs me in this MU?

[britrouga]

I tried to play this one a bit (it was vs bwinner and a captain though), and in my opinion a no vill ff can be effective.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/233400845

I go market in age 1, 500f age up, 700c 1st so I can age as soon as possible. I use the 6 skirm politician (with 6skirms+mm you should hold since you age really early), then send the black riders (you'll have enough gold for them because you're no training vills which saves you a lot of resources), then 8 skirms and you end up having a strong skirm/goon army which can defeat any musk/huss play from the fre player because you can endlessly hit and run him, and which will kill him if he tries to go to fortress, as you will have a lot more army.
Since it's a no food map, going for such a no eco build is actually not that bad because eco doesn't matter, your opponent can't gather after 9min because he will have no resources left.

I haven't tested it vs straight ff, nootka rush, and pionnier timings, and I think these builds can hurt the ger no vill ff, needs to be tested.

[Kaiserklein]

Any kind of fortress play for france will beat this no eco ff no? Just do a normal bo with france and age up fast, and I don't think you'll be up later than ger. Then you actually have an eco and can mass units and he can't. It's btw super easy to scout 500f age up (which ofc means straight ff) and to adapt.

[britrouga]

Any kind of fortress play for france will beat this no eco ff no? Just do a normal bo with france and age up fast, and I don't think you'll be up later than ger. Then you actually have an eco and can mass units and he can't. It's btw super easy to scout 500f age up (which ofc means straight ff) and to adapt.

Yea I didn't have the opportunity to try it vs the fre ff, and I don't know if France can beat it that easily. It's really fast, and you have to keep in mind that on Cascade you only have 1 mine and 2 small hunts, so if the ger player can outmass in early age 3, the fre player won't be able to gather resources and it might work.
I have no idea of how fast a no TP french ff would be so I can't tell, but it's worth a try imo.

[tedere12]

Ι've tried this no eco ff as germany vs piroshiki ff spain. It's very effective. Not sure how good it is vs france, since france can pull back and age with better eco.

[britrouga]

Ι've tried this no eco ff as germany vs piroshiki ff spain. It's very effective. Not sure how good it is vs france, since france can pull back and age with better eco.

On Cascade if the start musk/huss they can't pull back and age, as I showed in the last game of my stream, else they just die because I have way more and they can't gather

[Garja]

without tps maked ff is worse and colo play is better.
Rather sure fre can win this in colonial even.

[britrouga]

without tps maked ff is worse and colo play is better.
Rather sure fre can win this in colonial even.

Garja

[tedere12]

Ι've tried this no eco ff as germany vs piroshiki ff spain. It's very effective. Not sure how good it is vs france, since france can pull back and age with better eco.

On Cascade if the start musk/huss they can't pull back and age, as I showed in the last game of my stream, else they just die because I have way more and they can't gather

do you think a 700w 4 vill 700coin ageup would be a bad strategy vs a no eco ff? The way I see it, france would keep pressuring on the 2nd mine with hussars and cause a lot of idle time hence buying time, and force a 3 ww/ 9 br shipment first, which is not the best shipment to counter skirm goon

[britrouga]

Ι've tried this no eco ff as germany vs piroshiki ff spain. It's very effective. Not sure how good it is vs france, since france can pull back and age with better eco.

On Cascade if the start musk/huss they can't pull back and age, as I showed in the last game of my stream, else they just die because I have way more and they can't gather

do you think a 700w 4 vill 700coin ageup would be a bad strategy vs a no eco ff? The way I see it, france would keep pressuring on the 2nd mine with hussars and cause a lot of idle time hence buying time, and force a 3 ww/ 9 br shipment first, which is not the best shipment to counter skirm goon

I'm going to send br anyway.
Check the last game of my stream, my opponent went for a 10huss/5musk semi ff with 700w/4v/700c, and he just died in age 3 because he didn't have enough units to hold my timing.
Don't forget that if you can send 5 shipments (3v/700w/4v/700c/8skirms), I can send 4 as ger (2sw/700c/9brs/8skirms), and I will have 10 skirms produced by that time, so I will just have the map and you won't be able to gather.
As I said, I'm not sure this beats a 4v/700w straight ff, but it does beat the 700w/4v/700c semi ff

[zoom]

ez

[Hazza54321]

still dont see how u can gather 1kgold if the france dude has units under ur tc

[britrouga]

still dont see how u can gather 1kgold if the france dude has units under ur tc

You get the 1000c at 6:30

[britrouga]

still dont see how u can gather 1kgold if the france dude has units under ur tc

You get the 1000c at 6:30, 7min/7min30 if you harass so I don't think getting 1k gold is an issue.

[Hazza54321]

what about catching 6 skirm for free

[britrouga]

what about catching 6 skirm for free

I send the minutemen and tank with SW, also I should probably wall my gold mine (it costs like 30-40w so it's worth it), and then you can't raid my vills, nor catch my vills :)

[Kaiserklein]

Idk, it's just so slow to go br first and to slow age. You have literally nothing until you're age 3, which is not even that early because of the slow age. Let's say you hit colo at 4:30, 700g is on the floor at 5:10, you click fortress at 5:20 (that's when your second colo vil comes out and you anyway need approx 10s to gather the 700g) and you hit fortress at 7:10. And that's only if you age up to colo idleless and then to fort idleless again, which is a best case scenario (I checked one game vs bwinner and you hit fort at 7:25, for example).

Then you want to ship BR. You probably don't have a shipment ready because you get absolutely no xp from making vils/buildings/units (you had it ready at 7:30 vs bwinner). You probably won't ever have 1000g in the bank if you're getting pressured. But ok let's somehow ignore all that, and say you click your 9 BR shipment at 7:10; they need 1 min to come on the field, which makes it 8:10.

Meanwhile, you aged with 6 skirms at 7:10, and if the guy plays colo and has hussars they just die. Even with a wall I don't think it works, unless you call mm which is still kind of wasted. 6 mm + 2 uhlans won't ever save your skirms from 10 huss (easy to get that at 7 min). You're housed like shit because you didn't age up with 400w and later only mined gold to get your BR asap, and these guys take 27 pop. You need to chop at least 400-500w for rax + houses and it takes forever without 3 sw. When you finally get br the other guy probably has a decent mass of infantry to scare them away. And even if somehow you can hold after all that, you still have no stable, no houses, probably shit market upgrades, no eco. You actually don't even have a way to kill cdbs.


I don't see how this would ever work. We can play it at some point.

[Kaiserklein]

We tested and agreed that this ff doesn't work in this mu.

[Garja]

No wonder.
Going for preset semi like"10 huss 5 musks" of course can lose. Point of going colo is attacking until you think you've done enough to get a strong lead and then just do w/e is necessary to convert the lead into a win. Generally that's aging because the defending player will adapt hardcore just to not lose the pressure so will probably have barely enough to hold.

[Kaiserklein]

Honestly I believe any kind of semi (or even naked ff) would still beat that build anyway. The eco is just so low and the age up time isn't even that insane, you probably won't even be able to push france.
But I see your point with the colo play.

[lemmings121]

Ok, so on build orders.
We are back to fre goes samwise build and german dies? Noone is gonna risk saying a gameplan/bo for germans?

[Garja]

Tower (for xp and map control) and just make xbow/pike.
German can also go ulhan/dopp/xbow.

[Kaiserklein]

I think germany needs to play reactively there. Something like tower rush probably just doesn't work against fr. Like 5 huss + cdb or mm probably shits on any german bow pike rush, and once france can hold they will start outscaling with their better units. Other weird stuff like blind straight ff also won't work. So basically germany needs to scout and adapt to what france does I think.

If france goes cav start in base, it's probably the best chance for germany. You can cav start yourself and be fine in colo, then probably try to age. Still not sure you'll be able to hold if france goes for a timing push after the cav start, or even if they just semi ff as well (since germany relies much more on their shipments than france, and there's no tp). But that's probably a decent scenario for germany.

If france goes fb though (rax + stable or double rax), you will probably need to hold with rax start in base, and timing pushing a bit later on with bow dop. If you can't break the fb you lose. I doubt aging up works without a TP so I guess timing pushing is the only way. Ger bo would be: 3 sw / crates / 8 bows and push. Just try to push right before you run out of food. Probably need to go double rax if france doesn't make bows, cause uhlans are useless vs musk cav.

If france goes rax start in base (why though? idk) you can probably naked ff. But then again, if he timing pushes in colo, you might just lose.

[britrouga]

Ok, so on build orders.
We are back to fre goes samwise build and german dies? Noone is gonna risk saying a gameplan/bo for germans?

Frankly I have no idea how ger can win this, that's why I tried such an all in strat.
I have a lot of ideas for France, 10musk semi ff (I used to do that before the TP meta and it worked really well, the vet musk/canon timing rapes everything and thanks to cdb you can hold an bow rush), nootka rush, Samwise build, pionnier timing etc...

However, for ger I think it is just hopeless. If the no vill ff doesn't work, it means that it's just impossible to age, and trying to win in colo makes no sense.