MU of the week: Dutch versus British on Hudson Bay

[britrouga]

This MU is so brit sided its not even funny. Cheaper boom, better units, dutch cant really punish the ageup unless you stay colonial and hide the units (so he doesnt just mass in age 2 amd win)... nothing more to be said

It's brit sided for sure, but I think that most Brit players misplay the MUs so a good Dutch can win. Anyway, don't you think that it's relevant to know what's the best way for both civs to play this MU?

[macacoalbino]

Sure, maybe I was a bit too harsh, but I’m sick of trying this MU from ducth side hahaha gotta pray they dont have hunts, misplay or surprise them mothafucka

[lemmings121]

This MU is so brit sided its not even funny. Cheaper boom, better units, dutch cant really punish the ageup unless you stay colonial and hide the units (so he doesnt just mass in age 2 amd win)... nothing more to be said

Anyway, don't you think that it's relevant to know what's the best way for both civs to play this MU?

Yes thanks for this. the idea behind the 'mu of the week' is to be almost a complement to the strategy wall, someone can read all the threads of his civ and prepare for every mu. Players just posting "civ A has an advantage over B, dont play this mu" are useless to the discussion.

[lemmings121]

Sure, maybe I was a bit too harsh, but I’m sick of trying this MU from ducth side hahaha gotta pray they dont have hunts, misplay or surprise them mothafucka

[spoiler=surprise][/spoiler]

[macacoalbino]

Thanks for linking it for me hahaha

[britrouga]

Sure, maybe I was a bit too harsh, but I’m sick of trying this MU from ducth side hahaha gotta pray they dont have hunts, misplay or surprise them mothafucka

Yea but as I said, you can win with ruyt/falc.

[macacoalbino]

Yeah, gotta test that. Sounds really good if you can pull it off, but theres a big window where you are vunerable to pushes.

[momuuu]

This is one of those mus from the Dutch side where I feel like if they knew exactly what the brit player was planning that the Dutch player could edge close to 50% winrate. Brit has basically 3-4 ways to play in my eyes, which are all very different yet all reasonably effective:

Longbow/pike start. It's actually pretty hard to age up against that as Dutch I've found. In this case as Dutch I have personally had the most succes by actually doing a skirm/pike/hussar timing that hits before the brit player succesfully starts mixing in hussars. However, it's hard to hit that timing window and to do this succesfully you probably need to outmicro a bit, although the Dutch army does have more micro potential. Maybe you can age and boom incorporating CM, as that does a great job against longbows and pikes.
Musk/huss start. Lately, I've been thinking this is the best way to play as brits. I know that Dutch can actually defend the early opening pretty well if they go skirm pike. However, if the brit player starts hussars and scouts rax play, he can just age and end up being in a better position, or if he scouts Dutch going really boomy the brit player can just go kill dutch. This opening is probably the most flexible from the brit side, and extremely hard to scout out as the Dutch player, and I feel like with the right adaptations based on what the dutch player is doing, you can really win most of the time.
Brit can also semi FF with either VC or just 3 vills. I've felt like VC is slightly better lately, but I'm not actually sure which is best. I did some testing as Dutch and I think that you can sort of compete with the Brit player if you go for 5 bank straight FF, but that's extremely risky and it's honestly pretty hard to scout if the brit player went VC or is planning to age at all.

In fortress age, I have had considerably more success as Dutch by going 1 rax 2 stable and focussing on hussars/ruyters rather than skirm production. Against VC the game is most likely to go age 3, and I actually do think Dutch has a serious shot at winning the fortress age war, although they're at a slight disadvantage. I've beaten LordRaphael doing a VC FF but also lost to GS doing it and have struggled a lot against players that probably were a bit worse than me doing it. Overall though, I feel like Dutch definitely has a shot at winning the fortress war. Going Ruyter falc like diarouga suggested is probably also good and possibly better than 1 rax 2 stable stuff, but in the end the brit player just has more eco and a more effective unit composition. All things considered, I think I prefer the cav start musk huss style and I think Brits end up holding all the aces: They have all opportunities to adapt while Dutch is left trying to make a guess as to what exactly the brit player will do to just stay even. If the brit player has the match up figured out and scouts how the Dutch player is reacting, I think brits can actually get a serious advantage by going that strat.

Map specifically, hudson bay is high hunt generally. I feel like this actually weakens Dutch against Longbow pike (as Dutch probably wants to counterpush that sort of style), it makes brit's musk huss slightly weaker and it's a big buff the VC stuff. So on this map I'd be torn between musk huss and VC as brits.

[charlemango]

Every time I watch ruyter falc it loses to huss spam. Ruyters just aren't that effective at blocking, and I'm not even sure they trade well against huss if you can't hit and run. I think mixing in some pike for a ruyter-pike-falc composition could be viable.

[tedere12]

Every time I watch ruyter falc it loses to huss spam. Ruyters just aren't that effective at blocking, and I'm not even sure they trade well against huss if you can't hit and run. I think mixing in some pike for a ruyter-pike-falc composition could be viable.

yes mixing some halb or swiss pike would be nice. if you see diarouga's stream he did forward walls with gates to protect falconets.

[Garja]

Well you can't really protect cannons from cav without some meelee units. Goons are generally meant to get value trading vs cav so in this case you should sac the falcs while killing as many huss as possible.

[Hazza54321]

well people push out with not enough ruy thats the reason really

[Garja]

In general if goon type units don't kite they pretty much lose to hand cav in even numbers.

[yemshi]

Yeah going full goon vs hand cav is essentially trolling.

[deleted_user]

In general if goon type units don't kite they pretty much lose to hand cav in even numbers.

People actually didn't know this until I played Marco.

[Kaiserklein]

You probably don't need pikes/halbs to cover your falcs (maybe unless the other guy really makes pure huss or sth), just some huss to block. Goons aren't meant to tank melee attacks, it just doesn't work, they're just supposed to dps the cav.

[Bachscharfschütze]

dutch makes a proxy artillery and a tower, doesnt make a bank, make 10 grenadiers ship 8 pikes + 3 huss gg

[princeofcarthage]

dutch makes a proxy artillery and a tower, doesnt make a bank, make 10 grenadiers ship 8 pikes + 3 huss gg

This will more than likely be held by let's say 10 huss + 6lb/musk, mm, tc, brit tower, and then brit will have insanely op eco compared to dutch, also idk if u can even get 2 full batch of grenadiiers without resource shipments

[Bachscharfschütze]

dutch makes a proxy artillery and a tower, doesnt make a bank, make 10 grenadiers ship 8 pikes + 3 huss gg

This will more than likely be held by let's say 10 huss + 6lb/musk, mm, tc, brit tower, and then brit will have insanely op eco compared to dutch, also idk if u can even get 2 full batch of grenadiiers without resource shipments

i have done this myself quite often against a brit and usually i arrive to right click at 6 minutes. At that time most of the brits have just 1 military building, and often no units because they are too busy with VC, dutch will never rush hard right?

[princeofcarthage]

dutch makes a proxy artillery and a tower, doesnt make a bank, make 10 grenadiers ship 8 pikes + 3 huss gg

This will more than likely be held by let's say 10 huss + 6lb/musk, mm, tc, brit tower, and then brit will have insanely op eco compared to dutch, also idk if u can even get 2 full batch of grenadiiers without resource shipments

i have done this myself quite often against a brit and usually i arrive to right click at 6 minutes. At that time most of the brits have just 1 military building, and often no units because they are too busy with VC, dutch will never rush hard right?

if you can have 2 batches of grenadiers out as dutch pretty sure brit can have 2 batches of huss out, 6lb/musk is from shipment, besides map is quite big so you will have to actually walk 8 pikes all the way, theres no way you can hit with this at 6 min timing, lets 1v1?!

[Forjustice]

who gonna play against to?

[deleted_user0]

dutchlucifer

[Hazza54321]

Stop talking about the MU and play it faggots

[momuuu]

Stop talking about the MU and play it faggots

Its a thread on a forum. The idea is to talk about the mu.

[britrouga]

Unless someone thinks there's a way to win if the opponent doesn't play like a MS, I don't think it's interesting to play the MU.