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France kami_ryu
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11 Mar 2018, 22:53

Welcome to MU of the week. Every week a thread will be opened where we go over a certain match, set on a certain map. Hopefully the discussion will be in depth and top players will share their insight. Replays are definitely welcome so that people may support what they have to say. To make things even more interesting and engaging, we'll set the match-up on a certain map.

This week's featured match-up is Japanese versus French, the map is Kamchatka.

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You can vote on next week's thread here: https://goo.gl/forms/aJaEGXaIIxYi19kO2

You can find a list of ESOC maps here: maps.php

Here the match up table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

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Welcome! Credit for this idea goes to @lemmings121 as well as @musketeer925 & @BrookG building upon it. They are the masterminds behind this pretty nice idea!
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Greece tedere12
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11 Mar 2018, 23:07

even mu, france should naked ff skirm goon gendarme falc contain
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No Flag ssaraf
Skirmisher
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ESO: robinhood_xing

11 Mar 2018, 23:20

2 spies , 2tp stagecoach , 5 musk/5pike FF ...
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Kiribati SirCallen
Gendarme
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11 Mar 2018, 23:20

Is the 10 pike semi outdated? @betterplayers
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France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
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11 Mar 2018, 23:31

Probably a bit france favoured, because japan struggles vs cuirs. I would naked ff 4 cdb 700w and pressure in early fort. Japan should probably nagi ashi, or some kind of semi ff
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LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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11 Mar 2018, 23:46

On this map I'd say it's Jap favored.
No Flag optimusprime
Skirmisher
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11 Mar 2018, 23:53

15 musk semi imo mixing skirm gend up French fav
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Netherlands momuuu
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11 Mar 2018, 23:56

Id xbow pike as france, just because people follow the meta too much.

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Kiribati SirCallen
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11 Mar 2018, 23:58

I like making some pikes in age 2 because later in the game, in fortress when your barracks is always busy making skirmishers, you can't really get out pikes to right-click siege across the map. It's really helpful being able to press the issue and just clean up shrines like flies around the map with otherwise worthless units (but high value in this niche). Although I suppose one can always make some pike in transition.
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Serbia sirmusket
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12 Mar 2018, 00:18

ssaraf wrote:2 spies , 2tp stagecoach , 5 musk/5pike FF ...

this made me lol. Anyway I think this is prob Jap favoured because of the goats, and high amount of wood treasures you can get on this map. There's usually atleast one 90w/85w, sometimes 2, and also the smaller wood treasures. Also the area near the river kinda makes for shitty unit pathing so Japan could use that to advantage in a fight.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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12 Mar 2018, 05:34

Close MU, highly map dependant, usually french favoured probably slightly closer because of max 2 tps stagecoached and jap can steal one
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No Flag umeu
Gendarme
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12 Mar 2018, 09:32

ez win for gaypan.
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No Flag optimusprime
Skirmisher
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12 Mar 2018, 10:26

@umeu bo 20 pls
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
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12 Mar 2018, 11:25

@optimushack no ty.



ps, bo20 isn't a thing.
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Netherlands edeholland
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12 Mar 2018, 11:31

Umeu, could you provide more in-depth arguments as to why "gaypan" wins this matchup?
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India princeofcarthage
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12 Mar 2018, 12:00

optimusprime wrote:@umeu bo 20 pls

Challenging when you fail to show up to scheduled matches :hmm:
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No Flag Forjustice
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12 Mar 2018, 12:18

bo101
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Italy Garja
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ESO: Garja

12 Mar 2018, 12:28

Just gonna throw couple games pointing out that making euro musks vs Jap is utter shit
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[5RdH] 456(Japanese) Vs [WuTツ] LoOk_tOm(French) - EP ESOC Kamchatka.age3Yrec
(439.85 KiB) Downloaded 14 times
_Riot_Japan_VS_KINGofOsmane_France_ESOC Kamchatka.age3Yrec
(1008.01 KiB) Downloaded 62 times
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
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12 Mar 2018, 13:34

edeholland wrote:Umeu, could you provide more in-depth arguments as to why "gaypan" wins this matchup?


Because theyre gaypan
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Zimbabwe PeachTree
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Posts: 90

12 Mar 2018, 16:38

Do people try to use the water to make caravele and gallons? I got rekt one game on a mostly land map with that.
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Greece BrookG
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12 Mar 2018, 18:37

You cannot build docks on this map. Also, why are you people neglecting xbow+pike vs japan? I've always thought that was the most reasonable choice, against a shrine boom, but even if Japan stays colonial, isn't France winning the map control game?
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Greece tedere12
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12 Mar 2018, 18:39

BrookG wrote:You cannot build docks on this map. Also, why are you people neglecting xbow+pike vs japan? I've always thought that was the most reasonable choice, against a shrine boom, but even if Japan stays colonial, isn't France winning the map control game?

you can on the no- ice version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWxt3LYFORU
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United States of America dicktator_
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12 Mar 2018, 18:58

Garja wrote:Just gonna throw couple games pointing out that making euro musks vs Jap is utter shit

There's also this game (though not on Kamchatka): https://youtu.be/XQhjR0jhYO8?t=42m3s
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Italy Garja
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12 Mar 2018, 22:16

You can build docks on both version. Can use boats only in the spring version. Pretty useless anyway since they can't move because of shallows. Basically it's a 500w 100g investment that loses vs a 250w defense.

dicktator_ wrote:There's also this game (though not on Kamchatka): https://youtu.be/XQhjR0jhYO8?t=42m3s

Ye in general musk or musk huss is simply not the way to go vs Japs. The supposed tempo advantage of euro civs over Japan is pretty much nullified by the walking time to the Jap base. Also musk and huss train slower and musks get 2 shots killed by TC just like xbows and pikes.

As for xbow pike it can definitely work if Jap ignores that possibility but if scouted Jap can hold with pure yumi and good micro/building placement. Probably even cav start.
Still a semi xbow rush (with few pikes for shrines or possible cav switch) into semi FF (maybe even with xbow->skirm card) is probably the best way to play this.
Same strat with huss switch instead of age up can also work but I think that with good play for Japan that's inferior to the semi FF strat.

Stagecoach pike semi is also another good option. Pretty much the same of musk semi but with cheaper, faster and better sieging units.
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No Flag britrouga
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13 Mar 2018, 20:16

In general, this MU is French favoured, however, on kamchatka, Japan can easily get goats, and this on top of having a lot of animals in base means they can build a lot of shrines which can be protected by yumis. I'm not sure exactly how many but it's probably like 10+ Toshogu.
In addition, France can only get 2 TPs on this map while the Jap player has a safe one, and the middle TP is very exposed, so going stagecoach is barely worth on this map (although I think it's still the way tp go).
Thus, because of this, Japan can just boom, build a safe 160-180 pop eco, while going for a semi ff and walling since it's easy to wall the map and play the late fortress war, which is of course something you want to do as Japan.

Now, since the Jap late game play got heavily nerfed (the yumi range nerf is big if you want to play in fortress, and I have no word to tell how big the Shogunate nerf is :O ), France can definitely win a middle/late game vs Japan, which is why on the EP it's fair on this map, while on the RE it's jap favoured.

How to play it imo:

As France

As some pointed out, colonial play as France (especially hussar transition) can be very effective if you surprise your opponent and like catch 20 yumis with 20 huss, but assuming perfect play and map awareness from both players, it's simply not going to work.
So what can you do? Well, you can't play colonial so you have to play the late game and go fortress.
I'm not sure what's the best way to do this, but as I stated above, even if it sounds awkard, you should probably take the 2 TPs and go stagecoach. First you'll have stagecoach before the Jap has his TP so he won't benefit from the exp stagecoach provides (and 7min in the game it's really big, especially when playing this kind of build), and unlike others civs but Brits, going for the TP means cutting some eco as it costs him 2 shrines (which is approx 1.5vills), and negates the eco boost the TP will give him.

You probably shouldn't follow a precise build order because you want to surprise your opponent and you should mix the builds, but it should look like 700w/4v/700c into a 5pikes/5huss semi ff. Burn the shrines with the pikes and hunt the monks/yumis with the huss.
Or just go straight ff (700w/4v).

Then in age 3, send 2 falcs and try to kill something important (like the Toshogu or at least a rax), and check the Jap army (you can see the shipments he sent). If he goes yumi/ashi, go skirm/cuir. If he goes ashi/nagi, go skirm/goon. Make sure you don't lose your falcs to the 2 flaming arrows, make sure you don't lose your 5 pikes as they'll be useless during all the game to kill shrines and get map control (in some games I was able to kill more than 10 shrines with these pikes, that's 750w...), and go eco.
I don't think that shipping 8skirms or 3 cuirs early on is useful, unless you're sure you can do something with it, however 1000w/1000c for culvs/falcs vs ashi/yumi/arrows, cav combat etc will be much more important in most situations.
A general rule imo is that after your 2 falc timing, you should not try to break the jap. Just clean the map, and if you think you have enough army, go age 4 and then you should be able to break him with superior eco (you should have 50-60 cdb by that time and since it's kamchatka you won't run out of food/coin), and superior army (jap can't deal effectively with heavy canons).

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As Jap

Now as Jap, you should aim to make as much eco as possible, and lose as few shrines as possible.
Of course, scout, it's very important. You'll most likely get a monkey so you can afford to scout, see if there's a stable, if he's making musks, bows, pikes. If he has 2 raxes, a fb, vills on wood...
Against colonial play, a defensive yumi/ashi will win quite easily (600w/600w/600c for example), and against semi ff play, I like to start with ashis, because they're so good at dealing with pike/huss harassment, they're faster than both musks and xbows, and if you're outmassed you can even raid with them (it's not too good vs France though).
In this MU I like to put 4 vills on the wonder because it allows me to build my rax safely from the 600w and have my units at the same time as the Fre guy so I can deal with his agression.
Vs a semi ff I usually go for the 600w/4v/600c semi ff, with a TP (of course), and at least 160 pop+market, and in age 3, depending on what I think my opponent is going to do, I either go for the yumi/ashi/2arrows composition, which is really good if the opponent doesn't counter you with a cuir mass or culvs ; or for an ashi/nagi composition (with the 30% cav HP, this one is really insane), which is great too because ashis are so fast they can't be hit and run'd by a skirm/goon composition.
Last advice: on the EP, don't go age 4, unless you've won the game and you don't want to push out, because you don't get that much for the industrial (1 shipment instead of 2.5).

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