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France [Armag] diarouga
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Posts: 6233
Location: France

22 Apr 2018, 06:27

Welcome to MU of the week. Every week a thread will be opened where we go over a certain match, set on a certain map. Hopefully the discussion will be in depth and top players will share their insight. Replays are definitely welcome so that people may support what they have to say. To make things even more interesting and engaging, we'll set the match-up on a certain map.

This week's featured match-up is India vs Dutch on Fertile Crescent .

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Welcome! Credit for this idea goes to @kami_ryu @lemmings121 as well as @musketeer925 & @BrookG building upon it. They are the masterminds behind this pretty nice idea!
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Canada forgrin
Howdah
Posts: 1583
ESO: Forgrin

22 Apr 2018, 07:54

India gets diiiiiiccccckkkked (also hi guys!)

Edit: If you can rush and deny the second mine somehow it might be doable (as India)
https://www.twitch.tv/forgin14

"WTF WHERE ARE MY 10 FALCS" - AraGun_OP
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Kiribati SirCallen
Gendarme
Posts: 5473

22 Apr 2018, 07:58

4 tp stagecoach
theoretically derive and empirically amend -- the one-size-fits-all approach to approaching everything
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Posts: 6233
Location: France

22 Apr 2018, 08:43

forgrin wrote:India gets diiiiiiccccckkkked (also hi guys!)

Edit: If you can rush and deny the second mine somehow it might be doable (as India)

I've played this quite a lot on the RE, and India should win there. On the EP it's of course a lot harder because Dutch is much better, so I'm not sure how it should go.

Anyway, India can't play the macro game, eco karni mata ff won't work because Dutch will get more skirms (with one more range) and snow ball from there unless you get a lucky fight with mahouts and urumis. The biggest issue I'd say is that unlike nilla civs you don't have falcs so pure skirm/ruyt will beat your unit composition.

So you have to rush. That's really awkward now because your sepoys are going to die really fast to the TC, but still, it will iddle the Dutch eco, and even kill him if he goes too greedy. After this you want to age at some point, because if he manages to age (and he should with some walls, eventhough it's not that easy because an age 2 timing can kill him if he's not careful), skirm/ruyt will rape your age 2 composition. You need vet gurkhas to fight him.

As Dutch, you should boom as much as possible, so if you see a defensive Agra or a Karni mata, go for a 4-5 banks ff. If you see a rush coming, it's probably safer to start with the bank wagon and a rax from the 400w. With 10 skirms and minutemen (and even walls) you'll hold his rush easily, and then you should go age 3.
Keep in mind that India doesn't have a strong cavalry (sowars suck and mahouts are too expensive to be trained from a stable), so don't overmake ruyters, they're useless against gurkhas and urumis. 20-25 is more than enough usually. You can safely spam from 2 raxes after you get enough anti cav.
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Canada forgrin
Howdah
Posts: 1583
ESO: Forgrin

22 Apr 2018, 08:44

SirCallen wrote:4 tp stagecoach

Teach me your ways Callen, I wish to learn the way of making 2 stagecoach upgrades viable
https://www.twitch.tv/forgin14

"WTF WHERE ARE MY 10 FALCS" - AraGun_OP
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Kiribati SirCallen
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Posts: 5473

22 Apr 2018, 08:48

Is stagecoach upgrade for net a of 2 TPs viable? Yes. Then is it viable again? Also yes.
theoretically derive and empirically amend -- the one-size-fits-all approach to approaching everything
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Canada forgrin
Howdah
Posts: 1583
ESO: Forgrin

22 Apr 2018, 08:53

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
forgrin wrote:India gets diiiiiiccccckkkked (also hi guys!)

Edit: If you can rush and deny the second mine somehow it might be doable (as India)

I've played this quite a lot on the RE, and India should win there. On the EP it's of course a lot harder because Dutch is much better, so I'm not sure how it should go.

I've played this on RE with EP maps and I think it's not really the Dutch or India changes, more that most EP maps have a safe second mine (and hunts). Fertile Crescent is a bit weird in that the second one can spawn kinda far sometimes but most spawns Dutch should have no problem transitioning. However on quicksearch you can easily cheese Dutch with a rush on those maps with only one tin mine near base.
https://www.twitch.tv/forgin14

"WTF WHERE ARE MY 10 FALCS" - AraGun_OP
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Canada forgrin
Howdah
Posts: 1583
ESO: Forgrin

22 Apr 2018, 08:55

SirCallen wrote:Is stagecoach upgrade for net a of 2 TPs viable? Yes. Then is it viable again? Also yes.

What is your strategy for getting Dutch players to sit on their hands for 2 mins while you get your other line up? I dunno what Dutch people like. Do you bribe them with tulips?
https://www.twitch.tv/forgin14

"WTF WHERE ARE MY 10 FALCS" - AraGun_OP
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Kiribati SirCallen
Gendarme
Posts: 5473

22 Apr 2018, 09:01

forgrin wrote:
SirCallen wrote:Is stagecoach upgrade for net a of 2 TPs viable? Yes. Then is it viable again? Also yes.

What is your strategy for getting Dutch players to sit on their hands for 2 mins while you get your other line up? I dunno what Dutch people like. Do you bribe them with tulips?
It's like giving India 4 banksh of their own. Then FI and now it takes only two consulate petards to kill one bank as Aiz would point out.

Have we entertained the idea of India doing an FI? Them 50w houses.

Idk, I hate both these civs, both playing with and against.
theoretically derive and empirically amend -- the one-size-fits-all approach to approaching everything
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Posts: 6233
Location: France

22 Apr 2018, 09:20

forgrin wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
forgrin wrote:India gets diiiiiiccccckkkked (also hi guys!)

Edit: If you can rush and deny the second mine somehow it might be doable (as India)

I've played this quite a lot on the RE, and India should win there. On the EP it's of course a lot harder because Dutch is much better, so I'm not sure how it should go.

I've played this on RE with EP maps and I think it's not really the Dutch or India changes, more that most EP maps have a safe second mine (and hunts). Fertile Crescent is a bit weird in that the second one can spawn kinda far sometimes but most spawns Dutch should have no problem transitioning. However on quicksearch you can easily cheese Dutch with a rush on those maps with only one tin mine near base.

No it's really the Dutch changes. When I played it on the RE it was on Arkansas so the maps don't matter.
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Canada forgrin
Howdah
Posts: 1583
ESO: Forgrin

22 Apr 2018, 09:31

@SirCallen yeah this MU is pretty one-dimensional.

@Diarouga I wouldn't have thought 200f would make much difference tbh. Though I don't play much Dutch myself so I wouldn't really know.
https://www.twitch.tv/forgin14

"WTF WHERE ARE MY 10 FALCS" - AraGun_OP
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Posts: 6233
Location: France

22 Apr 2018, 11:20

forgrin wrote:@SirCallen yeah this MU is pretty one-dimensional.

@Diarouga I wouldn't have thought 200f would make much difference tbh. Though I don't play much Dutch myself so I wouldn't really know.

It's not the 200f, it's the additional exp you get for each bank which allows you to get one more shipment in age 2. On the EP you'll have everything in time, wood for banks, market, houses etc, and you won't have to skip 600w.
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Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 13238
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

22 Apr 2018, 11:37

I think from the india side of things its important to not underestimate how much damage a rush can do and how much it can delay the Dutch player. It's not even that it will win you the game or that it will actually be very cost effective, it's just that you push the game towards late colonial stages where india is a stronger civ. That should at least be the goal. On RE though there's the combination of nerfed sepoys and buffed dutch, which makes it rough.

That being said, fertile crescent is still low on hunts so rushing as india can definitely end up sort of working out. Tbh, I wouldn't even mind 10/10 if its a good crate start.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy

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