Build Order to defend

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Catalonia Hipokondriako
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Build Order to defend

Post by Hipokondriako »

Hello!
I am new to the game, level 15, and I am still learning the basic build orders, starting with French and spanish.
My question is: What to do when you get rushed?
For instance, I say I play Spain vs Russia in great plains. I´ve just reached colonial and I scout a very forward Russian blockhouse under construction: should I send military shipments like a madman and adapt for colonial agenda? Should I send deffensive cards, wall up and train xbows? Should I FF and rely on the minutemen+shipment to protect myself while I keep the FF? Nothing seems to work...
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United States of America _H2O
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Re: Build Order to defend

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Post by _H2O »

https://youtu.be/WkPhNZfnRD8?t=3123

Here is a game to show that you can defend even while setting up stagecoach. The other option is just tower in base ff.
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Catalonia Hipokondriako
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Re: Build Order to defend

Post by Hipokondriako »

Great play!
I noticed you build everything closer an send wood like a madman. I'll try to do the same next time.
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Catalonia Hipokondriako
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Re: Build Order to defend

Post by Hipokondriako »

Following my question, is it viable to ship from HC cards for calling militia twice or increase TC combat? I saw Boneng executing that vs Garja with great success in this (amazing) match, although the strategic conditions are very specific: portuguese (extra TC) booming in water vs civ without schooners.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSn_jgG ... terjection
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Germany yemshi
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Re: Build Order to defend

Post by yemshi »

That card is indeed very good and should always be an option. Mostly because of the increased TC attack.
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France bwinner
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Re: Build Order to defend

Post by bwinner »

Yeah this is a very effectiv card vs age2 russia since you one shoot both strel and musk with TC after this. The bad point is that you spend one card for this and russia can make it useless by playing defenssiv (i.e ff himself for example), so be sure that the opponent will commit to an aggressiv play befor you send this card.
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United States of America dicktator_
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Re: Build Order to defend

Post by dicktator_ »

bwinner1 wrote:Yeah this is a very effectiv card vs age2 russia since you one shoot both strel and musk with TC after this. The bad point is that you spend one card for this and russia can make it useless by playing defenssiv (i.e ff himself for example), so be sure that the opponent will commit to an aggressiv play befor you send this card.

In some cases removing the option for aggressive play makes it worth it imo. Most good players pull back when they see CM anyway. Good example of this is my Dutch vs Kaiser’s Russia on thar desert in the autumn tourney (or was it winter?). Kaiser does a forward bh as Russia always does and goes for some early pressure, I send cm, he pulls back and responds accordingly by aging, but loses anyway cause of Dutch scaling (it was still close cause of some fuck ups from me).
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Re: Build Order to defend

Post by greatscythe11 »

bwinner1 wrote:Yeah this is a very effectiv card vs age2 russia since you one shoot both strel and musk with TC after this. The bad point is that you spend one card for this and russia can make it useless by playing defenssiv (i.e ff himself for example), so be sure that the opponent will commit to an aggressiv play befor you send this card.

Well, I wonder if an outpost can be used as a middle ground between cm and no cm. Together with the tc it can provide 120 damage, enough for one shotting ruskets and strelets and same 135 damage vs cossacks. With tight herding and placement behind tc it may still provide decent defense at a cheaper cost since cm is effectively worth 700 resources. And even if the other player decides to play eco heavy the outpost does not set the bo back by a whole card.
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Re: Build Order to defend

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Post by Kaiserklein »

dicktator_ wrote:
bwinner1 wrote:Yeah this is a very effectiv card vs age2 russia since you one shoot both strel and musk with TC after this. The bad point is that you spend one card for this and russia can make it useless by playing defenssiv (i.e ff himself for example), so be sure that the opponent will commit to an aggressiv play befor you send this card.

In some cases removing the option for aggressive play makes it worth it imo. Most good players pull back when they see CM anyway. Good example of this is my Dutch vs Kaiser’s Russia on thar desert in the autumn tourney (or was it winter?). Kaiser does a forward bh as Russia always does and goes for some early pressure, I send cm, he pulls back and responds accordingly by aging, but loses anyway cause of Dutch scaling (it was still close cause of some fuck ups from me).

Yeah but imo this could work mostly because it was no tp. On a tp map russia would have a much easier time going back and aging. No tp maps are usually considered cool for russia because theres a lot of match up (vs france, ger, port, etc...) where the opponent needs a TP more than you do, so no TP favors you; but against dutch it's actually pretty bad for russia. You can definitely get a stagecoach too if dutch is camping and spending a card on cm, and then I think russia should win. So I wouldn't recommend CM if a stagecoach is possible, otherwise yeah why not.


To answer the OP: colonial militia can be an option, for some civs in some match ups. Against russia and aztecs, it lets you one shoot strelets/russian musks/maces/pumas. Against an all in crossbow/pike rush (you don't see that very often but still) you can also send CM and one shoot the stuff. Then it also depends which civ you're playing, since some civs have more reasons to ship CM than others. For example: ports have more than one tc so it's the best civ to send CM with. Spain has extra xp so they can afford to ship CM more easily. Dutch also gets extra xp from banks. Germany, on the other hand, won't get the 2 free uhlans from sending that card, so I would not recommend it.
Generally speaking, also never ship CM in age 1. The guy can see it by clicking on your tc and realizing that its anti ship attack is increased by 50%. From then he can just adapt and not rush you, and you basically wasted a card, which can be game losing. So try to ship it at the right timing, like when he's already in your base with a decent mass of units.

In most match ups, your best bet doesn't include CM. It's mostly about your build placement (having your buildings in a circle and keep ranged infantry inside and/or some chokes to screw up the cav pathing), your micro (usually when getting rushed you have fewers units so you need to take care of them), your villager control (try to tank/fight with them, while pulling them back into towncenter at last second) and most importantly a good timing with your units + minutemen + a unit shipment can do the job in a lot of cases.
Since you said you play mostly france and spain: spain is one of the few civs that can afford to ship CM, so you can go for that against russia or aztecs if you scout a rush. You can also just ff with your tower close to tc and just try to hold like that, with mm + dogs + unit shipment in age 2 if you really need it. Don't forget to make dogs everytime you need units: they are strong (especially in age 3) and cheap, train fast, don't require a military building (keep your explorer alive though!), and don't take pop space.
As france, you usually aim for a cav trap. Basically you start huss and wait for his army to commit close to your tc to pop mm, 8 bows, and use your cdbs to fight. But sometimes you won't even need mm or a unit shipment, because france is a fast civ that gets a good mass early on. Anyway, using cdbs is the key there. You of course want them to gather, so use your cdbs only when needed. But I'd say everytime your opponents commits next to your cdbs, you should use them to fight and shield your main army (cdbs have 400 hp at range! Don't forget to make the hp + attack/range market upgrades if you plan on using them). It's always efficient for you. Also if you run out of hunts and need to push out for map, just bring your cdbs along with your army to push the front base and/or keep your cdbs on a hunt next to your army, ready to fight whenever you need them.

If you want some more detailed explanation, just tell me for which match up and I can write something.
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Italy Garja
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Re: Build Order to defend

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Post by Garja »

CM in general is not really an option in high level games. The only civ against it may be a blind pick (still conditional on opponent committing to something aggressive) is vs Otto. Otto is probably the only civ that can't go back and just boom (or atleast it can do that but it's too slow). At best otto can go back and setup another committing timing (e.g. FF, FI, revo).
Russia vs Dutch on EP sort of relies on stagecoach to do this I agree. However water can be an option too and to some extent even just amalgamation can be a way to spend the extra income in eco.
In general however I'd say Russia doesn't mind CM too much because while its infantry get 1 one shooted they will have more than other civs, especially strelets. CM vs strelets is overkill and is never helping cleaning up the situation (reinforcements will exceed the killing rate). In fact I believe with Russia it is probably better to stick around anyway vs CM and force the minutemen pop and only then go away. The CM pop is even more committing than the card spent since it's both 700 resources and also about 20 pop space sunk and to deal with.

Back to the original question:
French tool for defense is mostly their cdbs high HP and ranged resistance. Because of that you can sort of get away aging up with way less units and to some extent the wrong units (e.g musk vs strelets). However Russia units are so cheap that even if they don't do immediate damage by killing cdbs, the sole fact that they idle them is usually efficient. French can also try holding the rush and counterpushing the opponent forward base together with cdbs. At lower levels it is mostly about defending the first rush so just be sure to upgrade your cdbs and fight near them so that they end up tanking ranged shots while not necessarily being idle.

Spain main defensive tool is just FFing and sending shipments as their colonial potential is objectively inferior to Russia's one. As a rule of thumb you generally want to time mm, a unit shipment and your age up units together to repeal the rush, while also using the TC and tower fire. Dogs can also be quite effective against Russia, especially after the auto upgrade in fortress.
The quickier the opponent comes in your base the more units he will lose to the TC and the tower fire before the big battle happens. You just want to be sure you queued up the age up and have enough resources for minutement (150f 150g). From there you can also have all vills in the TC (although it's better to sneak the one in excess somewhere on the map gathering resources). Usual build is something like 700g 700w 7 rods or even 700g 7 rods etc. First one is preferable. Earlier rods arrive is not helpful if you can't combine it with other units so time it well.
CM card imo isn't a great idea. It is very much possible that after sending it the opponent goes back saving his units while your eco your eco will be bad and you won't even have any extra unit to help to push out (unlike the unit card). It's not granted you win even reaching fortress.
ATP play is somewhat a finesse and I don't advise it, especially on the RE patch. Besides it is not granted you're holding even with the best play. A nasty opponent will probably go straight for you base and there are good chances you won't be able to hold.
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Re: Build Order to defend

Post by Kazamkikaz »

Hipokondriako wrote:Hello!
I am new to the game, level 15, and I am still learning the basic build orders, starting with French and spanish.
My question is: What to do when you get rushed?
For instance, I say I play Spain vs Russia in great plains. I´ve just reached colonial and I scout a very forward Russian blockhouse under construction: should I send military shipments like a madman and adapt for colonial agenda? Should I send deffensive cards, wall up and train xbows? Should I FF and rely on the minutemen+shipment to protect myself while I keep the FF? Nothing seems to work...

What you mean with level 15, homecity level or PR ? Alot guys advice start with Otto first when you are learning the basics but you can start with any civ just dont play with alot civilizations same time , you can do anything u said about walls, FF, colonial agenda, just dont lose alot villagers and dont be idle so much time, is hard deal with Russian rush cause of 3 reasons: Fast age up and army build start (in other words enemys in your base while you dont have nothing); Fast army mass cause is cheap and train faster even if is weak army; Good military shipments (5 cossacs, 4 cossacs and 13 strelets) for rush
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Catalonia Hipokondriako
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Re: Build Order to defend

Post by Hipokondriako »

Thanks for the tip, Kazamkikaz.

I found some success sending wood and micromanaging villagers when raided. I struggle to reach a critical mass to hold a timing, but now I succeed sometimes. My PR is 16.
I played with Spanish to learn FF builds. Then I played French for a more colonial oriented play, and now I am learning Chinese.

Thank you so much!

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