MU of the week: Ottomans vs Spain on Florida

[[Armag] diarouga]

Welcome to MU of the week. Every week a thread will be opened where we go over a certain match, set on a certain map. Hopefully the discussion will be in depth and top players will share their insight. Replays are definitely welcome so that people may support what they have to say. To make things even more interesting and engaging, we'll set the match-up on a certain map.

This week's featured match-up is Ottomans vs Spain on Florida .



Welcome! Credit for this idea goes to @kami_ryu @lemmings121 as well as @musketeer925 & @BrookG building upon it. They are the masterminds behind this pretty nice idea!

[lemmings121]

weird mu, not too familiar with any side.. waiting to hear from others

[[Armag] diarouga]

Waiting for others to give their opinion before I give the solution

[deleted_user0]

rofl...

[Garja]

" The solution"

From my experience:
Otto lose in the long run unless they damage Spain. So they have to do something, while Spain is happy to go age III and simply prolong the game.

Otto can go for double rax jan all in but CM should take care of it easily. I used to go full lancers vs that and now with nerfed Jans I think it works great.
Another possibility is stagecoach colo builds with a mix of jan abus or jan huss or all 3. Otto can also try full jans, perhaps with silk road. I'd say this option doesn't work given the buffs Spain received and Ottos' unit nerfs.
FF vs FF I think Spain is ok by just going full skirm + 2 cannons + anticav shipments. Force cannon trade and then poke keeping jan number low. That way mams aren't even scary.
Maybe there is a chance for Otto to semi FF with stagecoach and then go for a mix of age3 units. I'm not sure they can mass enough stuff in time tho. Possible combos are vet jan abus, abus-CA and jan-cannons.
Water play shouldn't work for either side. Both Spain and Otto can do normal FF and play it aggressive winning land. Then they contain a possible water castling. Otto can also punish Spain water in colonial.

[pecelot]

Both sides can go on water, and with rather-mediocre economies it can give an actual edge, provided they don't die to a timing, which in turn can be tricky on this map with such an awkward walling pattern disturbed by the trading route

[[Armag] diarouga]

I'm almost sure spain can't water. Maybe otto can but not sure.

[tedere12]

I am pretty sure otto wins this MU with semi ff (taking tp line and aging). Then they go jan hus imo with falc and spahi/mam shipments. Generally, Spain can't atp because otto can easily get 2 tps so shipping atp for 3 tps some of which u might lose to age2 jans is useless imo. Spain probably have to go skirm rod lancer and kite their way out of it. that is if they lose falc war. If they win they can push but otto can add abus that kill falcs easily.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I am pretty sure otto wins this MU with semi ff (taking tp line and aging). Then they go jan hus imo with falc and spahi/mam shipments. Generally, Spain can't atp because otto can easily get 2 tps so shipping atp for 3 tps some of which u might lose to age2 jans is useless imo. Spain probably have to go skirm rod lancer and kite their way out of it. that is if they lose falc war. If they win they can push but otto can add abus that kill falcs easily.

Well actually I'd say spain wins.

[bwinner]

I agree with garja, spain win the standard. I had some success with skipping some jans and sending spahis early on. Since spain is waiting for falcs, they often don't have much anticav, plus that's anyway not goons and spahis trade ok vs heavy inf. The good part is that you can kill the falcs and then it's hard for spain to deal with your falc.

[Hazza54321]

I agree with garja

id never thought id see this sentence in my life

[Darwin_]

I think one side might want to go water at some point, but I am not totally sure. It relies a lot on scouting, as both sides can FF or rush, even spain. If spain scouts an FF from otto, I would go for some sort of eco FF myself, with either a defensive tower or 500f if you have the balls to commit that early. My BO would probably be something along the lines of 700c-700w and then either 5v or 600w, with definetly a tp in transition. I like the 600w here because it allows for an easier second TP, which on Florida is fairly easy to defend. Going into fortress, I would go for a very lancer-heavy composition, starting skirm/lancer/cannon, and then going rods after 10/15 skirms to protect against mams/spahi/hussars. I think that lancers are very strong against otto as jans and cav archers are both relatively weak anti-cav, the latter especially against spain because they are fairly easy to catch with rods. A Spanish Gold FF is also definitely an option here as long as you think you can hold the early pressure from otto.

[pecelot]

where is the answer dayarooga???

[[Armag] diarouga]

That was a joke lol.

Well, here's my opinion:

Otto:

Double rax jan: Very easy to execute, spam jans 10/10 and rush your opponents' TC (700c/700f/5jans/3huss), and try to break him.
If he doesn't send CM nor gets op treasures, you should win fairly easily (watch raph vs _H2O from a previous tourney).

Jan/abus: It's a bit awkward imo because eventhough you'll kill the falcs easily, you can't commit coz abus die so fast, so you want to play a late colonial (700w/700c/600c/3huss or even silk road/700w/700c/700f/600c), but that's goona be hard because skirms and lancers are scary), watch the 3 Umeu vs Flooky games on rts sanctuary (it was on nilla though), spain won quite easily.
So all in all if you think you can outmicro it can be good, else you're going to lose.

Ff: Quite versatile, I like it. It's up to the falc battle but you have the edge thanks to the 4mams and the 4 abus, it's all about micro again and I feel that a spain who microes well or who walls a bit should win 700c/700w/2falcs/8jans/1000c/4mams, 2nd TP while aging to colonial, tower age up, then 4abus age up


Spain:

The only option imo is the std ff:
3v/700c/700w/5v if not pressure into 2falcs/skirms/lancers vs colonial, and 2falcs skirm/rods vs ff
Go 3v/700c/CM/700w vs a jan rush.

So it's all about the micro in the end, but if perfectly played that's spain favoured I'd say.

[deleted_user0]

vs otto i would always fast ff. aka 15v into 16 or with good tres, 17v ff.
instead of 16v into 18/19v ff

being 20-30 sec faster can mean difference between win or loss in this mu.

[Garja]

Ye skipping 1 vill it's good practice vs Otto. Problem is Spain needs 300f start most of times for a 15v age up. And also -1v in age1 doesn't necessarily translate in less vills in colonial because you will gather less resources. In fact there is pretty much always a bit of idle doing 17-18v ffs.

[Garja]

Ye skipping 1 vill it's good practice vs Otto. Problem is Spain needs 300f start most of times for a 15v age up. And also -1v in age1 doesn't necessarily translate in less vills in colonial because you will gather less resources. In fact there is pretty much always a bit of idle doing 17-18v ffs.
I suppose on Florida you should get enough good treasures to get idleless most of times. However hunting dogs in colonial pretty much means 16v most of times.

[[Armag] diarouga]

vs otto i would always fast ff. aka 15v into 16 or with good tres, 17v ff.
instead of 16v into 18/19v ff

being 20-30 sec faster can mean difference between win or loss in this mu.

Yea I totally agree.

[deleted_user0]

Ye skipping 1 vill it's good practice vs Otto. Problem is Spain needs 300f start most of times for a 15v age up. And also -1v in age1 doesn't necessarily translate in less vills in colonial because you will gather less resources. In fact there is pretty much always a bit of idle doing 17-18v ffs.
I suppose on Florida you should get enough good treasures to get idleless most of times. However hunting dogs in colonial pretty much means 16v most of times.

with proper macro it can be done on any start. but with 200f start you do need a food tres or you need to eat some sheep. 9/10 games it can be done tho, in my experience. but yes, if the initial herd is far, or you have 200f start then it can be difficult sometimes.

[pecelot]

That was a joke lol.

so was mine

[_H2O]

That fast age might be my issue. I know for sure this matchup is a literal coin flip if you play it normal.

[tedere12]

I remember shmras otto vs garja spain on PK clan shmras always won with much ease.

[Garja]

My BO back then was different and not so refined. For example there was no vill cut and also I think I made useless musks.
Also EP is very different in terms of map and otto units are nerfed.

[deleted_user0]

That fast age might be my issue. I know for sure this matchup is a literal coin flip if you play it normal.

yea I'm quite sure it is. the game you played vs mongo10 for example. you won, but you made it so much closer than necessary, whereas if you had aged 1 vill less and even 15 sec faster, you wouldve won so much more comfortably.

vs rapha you lost, despite pretty much doing everything else really well. had you aged 20 sec faster, it would've been ez win. though probably, even with the slower age, I think CM would've done the job as well.

[deleted_user0]

I remember shmras otto vs garja spain on PK clan shmras always won with much ease.

i was already doing the fast FF on nilla, and even there with shitty maps, the fast ff won it already. I practiced it like a 100 times with trixta for pk2 tournament. the only time it fails is if hunts are atrocious, which should rarely happen on ep anyway. now with jans nerfed, it should be even easier.

with the fast ff, you can often get rax up, and I would generally not even ship CM, because I could hold with mm, squeeze 3-5 musk in depending on tres as well as 5 dogs. and it would generally time up with the 4 huss. the spanish fast ff should hit age3 at 7.05. the jan timing would hit 30 jans at 6 mins i think, then walking, they generally walk into tc at 6.15 sometimes a bit earlier. so you pop your shit after theyre in your base for 30 sec. snare with rods in cover, then mm, and pop huss to finish the job.

the trick is to only 2 shot jans with tc fire, so theyre low hp, instead of dead, because otto has a housing problem with this strat. and the low hp jans will get killed off by the rods mm huss. and if you are in need of time, you can use explorer/vills melee to kill instead of tc.