A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by momuuu »

irr3alist wrote:Seems to me that age2 pike rush/ Dutch FF/ mining card+2 banks/Ruiter FI /fast halbs and my favorite:saloon Ronin Nuke are missing.

well, it is a guide to semi ffing with dutch, because thats the style Ive been trying to master for years.

I did try to also explain the straight FFs, since they are pretty important for the guide. Do you think I should maybe make a section called FF, or is it good this way?
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by N3O_Joe »

Now I know how to beat this!
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by momuuu »

n3ojoe wrote:Now I know how to beat this!

dang, I might have dug my own grave here :p
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by Papist »

Great guide. Of all the civs, it would seem to me that Dutch is one of the most micro dependent (China is up there as well) civs. That is one of the reasons I love them - with a good player at the helm, they can become a potent economic and military power.
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by Durokan »

What do you think of 3 huss shipment + 5 huss rush in colonial? If you catch your opponent off guard, it can be really good I think.

Also, can do the dutch ever get a trading post? In addition, is it truly neccessary to build banks aleays as the dutch, it seems like they could be similar to germany with their fortress agenda if they do a tp in discovery/transition while skipping the banks. (4 big shipments, 8/7 skirm and 9/7 ruyter)
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by Jaeger »

durokan wrote:What do you think of 3 huss shipment + 5 huss rush in colonial? If you catch your opponent off guard, it can be really good I think.

Also, can do the dutch ever get a trading post? In addition, is it truly neccessary to build banks aleays as the dutch, it seems like they could be similar to germany with their fortress agenda if they do a tp in discovery/transition while skipping the banks. (4 big shipments, 8/7 skirm and 9/7 ruyter)
Well most cics start 5 huss as well vs dutch and the minutemen and tc will kill the other 3. Even if they have 5 musk theyre fine.

TP is always good imo if you have a spare 200w or if youre not being pressured and can gather for it.

Germany also gets 3 free uhlans with those shipments so its much stronger.

A german style semi ff actually sounds really cool, but the problem is that it is too risky against any colonial pressure because you dont have a billion uhlans, or cdb, or a crossbowmen shopment. Even if you dont get rushed, witouth any banks you will most likely burn trough your safe mines before you get out a decent mass to push. So its only viable against civs which go fortress themselves, in which case its just better to build some banks because it slows u down by like 1 minute but you have time.
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by momuuu »

durokan wrote:What do you think of 3 huss shipment + 5 huss rush in colonial? If you catch your opponent off guard, it can be really good I think.

Also, can do the dutch ever get a trading post? In addition, is it truly neccessary to build banks aleays as the dutch, it seems like they could be similar to germany with their fortress agenda if they do a tp in discovery/transition while skipping the banks. (4 big shipments, 8/7 skirm and 9/7 ruyter)

The problem with the 8 huss start is that most civs either start cav themselves ir start with musks. So its going to be pretty tough to do some significant damage. And then you face another problem. If youre going to do this, you are making it much tougher to ever age up to fortress. Basically you kinda force yourself to play in age2, which is not what you want as Dutch.

Going 5 huss + 8 pike can be really effective against cav semi ffs though.

About the german style FF, Dutch has a few problems. The biggest one is that they dont get an amazing 6 vill shipment, and dont get the extra uhlans (which makes it a 5 huss semi vs a 9 uhlan semi), so timings are going to be harder to hold. Especially if you consider that their first fortress shipment is much less powerful because you dont get the three extra uhlans.

Im still not sure about the TPs. Ive been wanting to test them, but I can never find any point in the BO where they would fit.
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Post by pecelot »

What about going full cav in age 2 against civs like China? I saw Venox did that vs Yurashic once and he won :D China can't really do anything, when 10 huss are camping under their TC.
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by _venox_ »

I won once and lost the rest of the series.
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by pecelot »

Still the strategy was successful.
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by momuuu »

Wouldnt call 10 huss full huss though.. It could work against china I suppose.
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by pecelot »

10 under the TC, the rest under the villages ')
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Post by momuuu »

Thing is, if he ages and gets musks or sth, youre gonna be sad.

But maybe it can work, idk.
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Post by pecelot »

The thing is that he can't age or at least can't age that fast.
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Post by _venox_ »

What does Dutch do against Spain? Wickedcossack adviced me to age up with 400w, send a bank wagon, gather 1200 -1000 and use the 400w for a stables and 2 houses and the 3. shipment for a fortress military shipment' Yet I seem to be way too slow against a Spanish all in (8 pikes instead of 5 villagers).
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by momuuu »

venox wrote:What does Dutch do against Spain? Wickedcossack adviced me to age up with 400w, send a bank wagon, gather 1200 -1000 and use the 400w for a stables and 2 houses and the 3. shipment for a fortress military shipment' Yet I seem to be way too slow against a Spanish all in (8 pikes instead of 5 villagers).
I am going to be honest, I have no idea. I think you kinda want to do a 2 bank ff, 3 banks is too much 1 bank seems not enough, but I dont know if you throw down a rax or a stable in colonial. You kinda want to mass ruyters vs the falc, but seemingly cant hold the 8 pike allin if you do.
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by _venox_ »

Have you any experience with 700w 8 pike and train 10 skirm to kill their front base and musketeers and hero and dogs and then follow?
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by adderbrain5 »

papist wrote:Great guide. Of all the civs, it would seem to me that Dutch is one of the most micro dependent (China is up there as well) civs. That is one of the reasons I love them - with a good player at the helm, they can become a potent economic and military power.

so what do you say to everyone who calls me a noob including yourself when I actually play best with Dutch
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by _venox_ »

You don't play best with Dutch nor with any other civilisation in age of empires.
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by momuuu »

venox wrote:Have you any experience with 700w 8 pike and train 10 skirm to kill their front base and musketeers and hero and dogs and then follow?
I dont, could be interesting. To be honest, I have very little experience in this mu and that experience mostly includes me losing my TC before achieving anything.
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by adderbrain5 »

venox wrote:You don''t play best with Dutch nor with any other civilisation in age of empires.

well now you''re just saying foolishness arent you
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by benj89 »

venox wrote:Have you any experience with 700w 8 pike and train 10 skirm to kill their front base and musketeers and hero and dogs and then follow?
I think that''s the best option vs spain. 10 skirm pike semi, kill tower + fb asap, wall and age. then adapt, I like ruyt canons with swiss/skirm shipment once age3.
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by purplesquid »

I have recently started playing dutch with the FP so I thought I would take a look at this.

@jerom do you have any updates to you guide coming off of the fan patch? BTW nice job beating highspeed last weekend :)
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A guide to the Dutch semi-FF

Post by edeholland »

Would love to see this updated and also have a matchups section. It's a great write-up imo

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