zoom wrote:Whether Aztecs have the "biggest" navy in the game is less interesting than whether they have the strongest navy in the game, just as whether their warships are "cheap" is less interesting than whether they are more or less cost effective compared to the competition. Shipping TEAM Cheap Fishing Boats in a 1v1 is not desirable. I have no fucking kloo what you are claiming has "amazing stats and range", but nothing the Aztecs have has "amazing range", thats for sure. Skull Knights are so whoreshit terribad its not even funny and that argument in the first place (regardless of whether a less pathetic unit was featured) is pointless. Any civilization can do that, and it certainly has nothing to do with what we are discussing ITT.
Heres a fact that seems as though it would actually add to the discussion: Canoes receive absolutely no upgrades outside of cards. This means that as soon as Euro Trash and Jap Bastards get their Colonial Age warship upgrades, canoes are nothing but a liability by comparison.
A fully upgraded tlaloc canoe demolishes every ship in the game you fool... And i dont understand why everyone thinks you have to schooner boom in order to win water... Its frigging stupid. The strongest navy is the one who rules water, not the one who can fishboom the best... Land boom totally demolishes a waterboom in terms of gatherate, efficiency and actual res available in terms of food. The thing that makes water so dangerous is the facf that there is no counter to it, you can only beat it by also going water in most cases, aka warships, and for some civs this is simply not viable. Hence they instantly lose unless they severyly outplay their opponent. Hence water is fucking broken... Yeye kynesies warship micro is good, but thats pretty much irrelevant because you dont need any fucking micro to have a 2 upgraded frigates demolish a hundred land units including their hard counter, culverins.
If you make warships at the same time and dont go full land boom wont you get outboomed? With 4 docks the guy basically has another 2-3 TCs
Thats why you go full landboom + fight on water, meaning you slow his boom by forcing him to make ships, u harrass his eco while yours is untouched. But some civs just dont have the cards to win such a fight...
zoom wrote:Whether Aztecs have the "biggest" navy in the game is less interesting than whether they have the strongest navy in the game, just as whether their warships are "cheap" is less interesting than whether they are more or less cost effective compared to the competition. Shipping TEAM Cheap Fishing Boats in a 1v1 is not desirable. I have no fucking kloo what you are claiming has "amazing stats and range", but nothing the Aztecs have has "amazing range", thats for sure. Skull Knights are so whoreshit terribad its not even funny and that argument in the first place (regardless of whether a less pathetic unit was featured) is pointless. Any civilization can do that, and it certainly has nothing to do with what we are discussing ITT.
Heres a fact that seems as though it would actually add to the discussion: Canoes receive absolutely no upgrades outside of cards. This means that as soon as Euro Trash and Jap Bastards get their Colonial Age warship upgrades, canoes are nothing but a liability by comparison.
A fully upgraded tlaloc canoe demolishes every ship in the game you fool... And i dont understand why everyone thinks you have to schooner boom in order to win water... Its frigging stupid. The strongest navy is the one who rules water, not the one who can fishboom the best... Land boom totally demolishes a waterboom in terms of gatherate, efficiency and actual res available in terms of food. The thing that makes water so dangerous is the facf that there is no counter to it, you can only beat it by also going water in most cases, aka warships, and for some civs this is simply not viable. Hence they instantly lose unless they severyly outplay their opponent. Hence water is fucking broken... Yeye kynesies warship micro is good, but thats pretty much irrelevant because you dont need any fucking micro to have a 2 upgraded frigates demolish a hundred land units including their hard counter, culverins.
Tlaloc Canoes have no upgrades (unlike Euro Trash and Jap Bastard warships) and because of this lose badly once all such upgrades have been researched. Also, Schooners has nothing to do with winning water' it merely allows you to benefit from doing so.
umeu wrote:A fully upgraded tlaloc canoe demolishes every ship in the game you fool... And i dont understand why everyone thinks you have to schooner boom in order to win water... Its frigging stupid. The strongest navy is the one who rules water, not the one who can fishboom the best... Land boom totally demolishes a waterboom in terms of gatherate, efficiency and actual res available in terms of food. The thing that makes water so dangerous is the facf that there is no counter to it, you can only beat it by also going water in most cases, aka warships, and for some civs this is simply not viable. Hence they instantly lose unless they severyly outplay their opponent. Hence water is fucking broken... Yeye kynesies warship micro is good, but thats pretty much irrelevant because you dont need any fucking micro to have a 2 upgraded frigates demolish a hundred land units including their hard counter, culverins.
Tlaloc Canoes have no upgrades (unlike Euro Trash and Jap Bastard warships) and because of this lose badly once all such upgrades have been researched. Also, Schooners has nothing to do with winning water' it merely allows you to benefit from doing so.
Nope, they dont, thats what im telling you. Not only do they win cost effectively (you can make 2 tlaloc for the price of 1 frig), they win period. A tlaloc canoe with all the cards and water dance (with 10 wp) beats a frigate with all cards and dock ups.
"He's just got more stuff, and sometimes just having more stuff, despite the fact you have better positioning or better micro just doesn't matter because sometimes when you just got more stuff you just win the game." - ZutaZuta
I still think aztec is overrated. They cant reliable lame the crap out of the water, they can only dominate it. They counter water civs but cant deal with land pressure when they water boom I think. So they basically turn it into a land 1v1. In which case they are a good civ, but not the best.
If you build walls, age relatively quickly to fortress with the messenger and get some units out you can hold the land push np. Use jag BBs to trap your enemy and do minutemen dance.
Aztecs can water boom as well as any other civ, actually better than most. And they can defend the land pressure, just they don't do it with ships on the coast but rather with land units. The problem is that water in age1 shouldn't really be viable with any civ if the opponent counters it.
How do you counter water the best? I try to follow this: Harass early, get water control with towers, boom and age up, harass their water, overwhelm their land and zone out their land stuff. Then get culverins and mortars etc... to fight water ships.
Don't let the things you can't change dictate your life.
venox wrote:How do you counter water the best? I try to follow this: Harass early, get water control with towers, boom and age up, harass their water, overwhelm their land and zone out their land stuff. Then get culverins and mortars etc... to fight water ships.
Depends on the civs, map, opponent.
You can do caravell rush, shut down water quickly and take it for yourself: send 2 boats as your first colonial age shipment and build 1-2 more boats from the dock so you have a good navy early on. Follow it up by warship upgrades and beat your enemy on water. You cant do it against civs like Portuguese or British because they will have a tower/town center protecting their docks.
Generally the best way to beat water besides caravell rush is to push on land and water at the same time. Do some kind of semi ff, push with land military units and a frigate shipment for example. Water player will be barely aged or in age 2, so he will have to deal with your frigate to gather on water and your land units on land.
Imo don't push on land and water at the same time, that usually plays in the water guy hands who can react to the threats (as they're not strong enough) and rely on the marginal eco advantage to autowin. Instead harass land in force and once he is totally zoned out, then think how to end the game from there, which usually involves killing the sea.
It's not entirely true that ax can't hold the land push booming on water. Especially if the opponent is doing a Fortress build or even if their colonial Rush is slow. By the way spamming fishing boats from multiple advanced docks does win you the water XD didn't you know u can garrison ur schooners to rape that silly ports caravel rush? The reason BTW why ports are so OP navally is cheap warships is long range mortars. Most Mortars u can just shell out yourself from long range attack. Ports? You can't even see their mortars... Boom all the sudden your navy is gone. Those long range mortars are the only thing any Vic has vs offshore support
