TP meta?

[_DB_]

Why would u do transition tp as India... It delays market ups and you have a shipment upon age up without to. I wouldn''t make tp unless I''m fine to have no idle market time

Yes you have the shipment available at aging up, but you need TP for having 2nd shipment available very soon. The faster you get shipments, the faster you get vils. GoodSpeed made that statement in his guide too. You can still have market and first 2-3 ups with 14-15 vil age up at 5th minutealong with transition TP.

[deleted_user0]

Thats about 3-4 vils less than if u dontadd tp.

[zoom]

Isn't a TP better than market during transition anyway? Especially as Indians.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Isn''t a TP better than market during transition anyway? Especially as Indians.

You need a market, the matter is if you can make market+tp and if you should tp before market.
Imo if you 10/10 or put 4vills on the wonder, tp is better, if you do h2o''s build, market is better.

[zoom]

You don't need a market. A market is good. The question is whether a market is better than a TP during transition with Indians. I doubt it.

[[Armag] diarouga]

You need a market.

[gibson]

A market is definitly better, and there's no way you have the resources to do a market and constantly research upgrades and create settlers. Just build a to after you age and miss out on one pass of the trevouis man not a big deal Imo unless it's on a map with a huge route such as great Lakes then you might want to consider getting to before the man passes again

[_venox_]

Where else to sell all the wood you overchopped.

[Garja]

tp is surely very good cuz it speed ups shipments and give extra vills, but market techs need time to be researched and the sooner you get them, the more the pay off. TP can be added with 600w delaying stable a little, while you can't really add market with 600w cause then techs will come too late and mess with your macro.

[zoom]

You need a market.

No, you "need" Ottoman allies' Market and a TP are great and there''s no reason to get at least one of the two. I understand you find a Market more important than a TP though...

[zoom]

tp is surely very good cuz it speed ups shipments and give extra vills, but market techs need time to be researched and the sooner you get them, the more the pay off. TP can be added with 600w delaying stable a little, while you can''t really add market with 600w cause then techs will come too late and mess with your macro.

Anything pays off more in total the sooner you get it, so that''s hardly an argument one way or the other. In the case of Market upgrades however, there is something to be said for Market upgrades actually being less valuable the fewer gatherers you have, which is by contrast quite the argument against an early Market over a TP.

[Garja]

tp is surely very good cuz it speed ups shipments and give extra vills, but market techs need time to be researched and the sooner you get them, the more the pay off. TP can be added with 600w delaying stable a little, while you cant really add market with 600w cause then techs will come too late and mess with your macro.

Anything pays off more in total the sooner you get it, so thats hardly an argument. In the case of Market upgrades however, there is something to be said for Market upgrades actually being far less valuable the fewer gatherers you have, which is by contrast quite the argument against an early Market over a TP.

Yes and thats why you may want a TP when you rush for example. But when youre booming you want upgrades because each one of them helps getting the next one.
Also you want market ups when your vills are gathering resources and not when they run out of them, in which case you may be sending 700f 600g and 4 sowar.

Anyway best argument is I tried both and market seems better in transition if youre doing the usual greedy build.

[Goodspeed]

Keep in mind a fully upped market is much more expensive 100+50+80+130+200+150+450 = 1060 resources for the relevant ups. No shit it's better than a TP but only if you spend a ton more res on it. Say you have 200w to spend, that's just the first hunting upgrade and the first gold upgrade. 5% on food and coin? At 5 min game time this is worth about 0.7 villagers and this is assuming you are not gathering any wood which let's face it 80% of your vills are on wood. That's way worse than a TP, really guys there is no understating how much worse that is.

For the record it's not like I skip market, but the TP takes priority because it's quite simply a much stronger investment early-game. If you're getting rushed then so be it, you'll have less market ups than you would usually have but the TP is still better than the market ups you would've had if you didn't go for it. By far.

I'm quite surprised you are all so convinced that a market at 5 min is a better investment than 1.2 xp/s for a civ that barely puts any vills on food and gold for most of the early game. But yeah, like I said, TPs still underrated.

[Garja]

It takes minutes to research all market techs, that's perhpas the main reason why you drop the market asap. You get the tp anyway with 600w which is like 2-3 passage less, aka one card delayed by 40 secs max.
Again is not really about maximing the efficiency (you don't research tier one food up because it's worth a lot, it just unlocks the 2nd tier), it's more about practical reasons, such as having all techs researched at a reasonable time, before making any unit.
Ah also in transition you're problably doing other stuff with the explorers.

[_DB_]

You don''t need a market. A market is good. The question is whether a market is better than a TP during transition with Indians. I doubt it.

TP all the way. Market''s upgrades will take time to pay off. TP will give you shipment + vils faster before the market ups even pay off.

[_venox_]

I guess Garja is saying that delaying the first 2 upgrades by let's say a minute also means that you will delay the later market upgrades also by a minute, and by that time you have a bigger economy and will miss out on more than just 0.7 villagers.
I think all things said here only apply to pure boom India where you don't have units out until the 7 minute mark.

[Goodspeed]

I'll take all of my next shipments sped up (the first ones significantly) over a 20 sec (which is about the time it takes you to gather 200w) jump on my market ups any day of the week, and that's assuming you have your market researching non stop. Which is the greedy build again? Also have you done the math on that 20 sec jump on market ups? It's insignificant, maybe half of an extra unit by 6.30. Did you consider the +1 vill with every shipment and the earlier Otto vills, too?

The explorer time argument is barely relevant considering the negligible average loss of resources from having 1 of your 2 explorers take a 20 second break scouting. Of course if you see a big tres and need both explorers, by all means delay the TP and build a market first, but as soon as one of your explorers is free he should go to build a TP. In any case there is no reason to wait for the 600w, which I wouldn't even send first in most cases because the early TP allows me to send 2 shipments relatively quickly in a row. It makes other builds (non 600w 300e) stronger too like a quick 12 inf rush or 4 sowar+5 inf after which you send 600w and go eco. I'm sure you know how slowed down your eco feels after going military shipment and military production first and I'm sure you can imagine how great it would be to have that 600w and 300e arrive 30-40 seconds earlier.

It makes fortress-based builds stronger, like TPs always do, because having your fortress shipments sped up is a big deal plus it allows you to semi-FF at a reasonable time because you get the 600g earlier. Then there's your mid colonial 4 sowar into timing attack being sped up a good amount... And the possibility to send 300e 600w and not be waiting for that 600w for way too long.

Need I really say more?

[Garja]

First of all you're delaying the market way more than 20 secs as you're mixing tp/market with vill production and one house. Secondly every second is important. In the greedy build you're basically waiting for all ups to finish before queing any unit. It's already quite a long process without chopping 200w extra wood for a tp that is speeding up remarkably only your 2nd and 3rd shipment, compared to a TP built with 600w 2 minutes later (2 tp passages on medium lenght routes). Now, 2nd card is 300export for 4v which means you will get housed sooner (good luck not getting housed when you're making units and researching market ups) and 3rd card is usually wood trickle or 600g both of which don't really repay the fact that you will have inefficiencies due to 200 extra wood that you can't squeeze in.

The explorer argument is very relevant. Not only for the obvious reason of getting treasures (that grant xp btw) but also for scouting which takes way more than 20 seconds (it takes 40 seconds just to move from your TP to the opponent TC, without even circling around his base). And that's without considering the very common complications of having to resque the other elephant, deal with native harass, block opponent agra, find and siege a blockhouse or warhut, etc.
Not to mention the awkard situation where the explorers are on the opposite side of the map just when they should build the TP.

Obviously if we talk about rushing that's a completely different story because the dynamic of the game is completely different. Even there tho, if you didn't get good treasures is probably better to just save the wood or the rush won't have a follow up in terms of units.

Fortress based builds aren't really that important imo. Any attempt to semi ff with India seems quite bad.

[gibson]

I just want to point out that having a tp in fortress does not guarantee faster shipments and sometimes will cause you to get your first shipment slower( obviously you would have had an extra colonel shipment then). Also, as the game goes on tps become more and more irrelevant, as the xp from getting out your units will dwarf the 87 xp that the tp will provide. In the other hand, market upgrades become better and better, as your units get better from upgrade cards and aging. In colonel 100 food might buy you 150 hp and 25 attack while later in the game it might buy you 200 hp and 30 attack. The resources buy more which makes them more valuable which makes the market ups more valuable.

[Jaeger]

I just want to point out that having a tp in fortress does not guarantee faster shipments and sometimes will cause you to get your first shipment slower( obviously you would have had an extra colonel shipment then

Then just dont send it in colo and have 1.9 shipments in fortress instead 10 seconds faster fortress but only .5 shipment

[gibson]

I just want to point out that having a tp in fortress does not guarantee faster shipments and sometimes will cause you to get your first shipment slower( obviously you would have had an extra colonel shipment then

Then just dont send it in colo and have 1.9 shipments in fortress instead 10 seconds faster fortress but only .5 shipment

well obviously if you are aging to age three you arent gonna send a colonel shipment. But if you get a shipment then age a minute later depending on how much xp each trevouis man is and how many buildings and units you build in transition it might lead to a slower fortress shipment.

[deleted_user0]

You need a market.

No, you "need" Ottoman allies' Market and a TP are great and theres no reason to get at least one of the two. I understand you find a Market more important than a TP though...

Ottoman allies is overrated for the same reason 4v is. Its even a worse variation of the 4v shipment which almost no civ uses but suddenly india needs? If you delay consulate and 300 xp just look at the mass india gets out... Dont even need that 6 mm...

[deleted_user0]

Keep in mind a fully upped market is much more expensive 100+50+80+130+200+150+450 = 1060 resources for the relevant ups. No shit it''s better than a TP but only if you spend a ton more res on it. Say you have 200w to spend, that''s just the first hunting upgrade and the first gold upgrade. 5% on food and coin? At 5 min game time this is worth about 0.7 villagers and this is assuming you are not gathering any wood which let''s face it 80% of your vills are on wood. That''s way worse than a TP, really guys there is no understating how much worse that is.

For the record it''s not like I skip market, but the TP takes priority because it''s quite simply a much stronger investment early-game. If you''re getting rushed then so be it, you''ll have less market ups than you would usually have but the TP is still better than the market ups you would''ve had if you didn''t go for it. By far.

I''m quite surprised you are all so convinced that a market at 5 min is a better investment than 1.2 xp/s for a civ that barely puts any vills on food and gold for most of the early game. But yeah, like I said, TPs still underrated.

Nobody is saying dont make a tp, people are saying delay your tp by 60 seconds in oder to build it with wood from shipment instead of gathered is better for a smoother build. Unless you get op treasures you will get idle tc time if you build a tp in trans while you wont have this with a market.

As garja, i tried both and i found that my slightly faster tp gave me no discernable advantage in the ling run. In fact i had less eco because i had to skip a vil and had market up later. And ye i had 4 vils from cons like 20 sec faster but that didnt make up for it.

[fei123456]

a french musk huss can train 4 hussar 5 musk in the first batch. but if you build a tp it becomes 2 hussar 4 musk.

[Goodspeed]

First of all you're delaying the market way more than 20 secs as you're mixing tp/market with vill production and one house.

Make it 30 (and that's pushing it). Even so, the difference is almost negligible especially considering the earlier +1v from shipments and the earlier 4v from Otto cons. But it looks like you won't believe me until I present you with the numbers:
Having 5% on food 30s earlier, considering you have about 2 vills on food, is worth about 3 vill seconds.
5% on gold 30s earlier: 3 VS
5% on everything: 20 VS
10% on food: 10 VS
10% on gold: 10 VS
10% on everything: 60 VS

You are looking at a 100 VS bump compared to TP first, and the advantage stops there. The advantage of having the TP 2 minutes earlier on the other hand, stays relevant all game. The first 2 shipments that arrive earlier already negate the 100 VS because having +1v 30 seconds earlier twice means 60 VS plus the earlier Otto vills which is worth 150 VS. So already, after 3 colonial shipments, the TP@600w

notification

build is behind by 100 VS and your next shipments are sped up too with TP first. And this isn't even considering the huge deal it is to get your 300e, 4 sowar, 600w, 600g or whatever you're sending at that point 30 seconds earlier.

Secondly every second is important. In the greedy build you're basically waiting for all ups to finish before queing any unit.

This argument makes no sense. You seem to think you're randomly not allowed to make units until the 450 upgrade is queued, but obviously you can start making units before that. Also I'd like to stress that you don't actually have less resources if you went TP first because you're building the TP either way. TP first is not losing 200 wood, it's just spending it differently.

Now, 2nd card is 300export for 4v which means you will get housed sooner (good luck not getting housed when you're making units and researching market ups)

Are you really trying to spin the earlier arrival of 4v into something bad by saying I'll be housed sooner? Come on, this is completely negligible considering you have to build this house either way.

and 3rd card is usually wood trickle or 600g both of which don't really repay the fact that you will have inefficiencies due to 200 extra wood that you can't squeeze in.

(or 4 sowar)
Beg to differ. In fact, a 20 second earlier wood trickle alone negates the res advantage you got by having all of the market ups 30 seconds earlier. And this is the 3rd shipment, and wood trickle isn't even a good shipment... Really it's just not even close.

The explorer argument is very relevant. Not only for the obvious reason of getting treasures (that grant xp btw) but also for scouting which takes way more than 20 seconds (it takes 40 seconds just to move from your TP to the opponent TC, without even circling around his base). And that's without considering the very common complications of having to resque the other elephant, deal with native harass, block opponent agra, find and siege a blockhouse or warhut, etc.
Not to mention the awkard situation where the explorers are on the opposite side of the map just when they should build the TP.

I get that you're focusing on this argument since it's hard to quantify the edge you get by having a second explorer for 20 more seconds, but let's not have any illusions about how big of a deal this is. Even if you consistently got an entire 50 wood treasure more out of this which is far from the case, it's still negligible considering the much bigger boosts you get by having your shipments arrive earlier. If you have both your explorers far away from the TP when you should be building it that just means you messed up. Blocking the agra? That happens a good while before you build the TP. Sieging their forward military building? What are we playing a game of "who can best waste their explorers' time"?

Obviously if we talk about rushing that's a completely different story because the dynamic of the game is completely different. Even there tho, if you didn't get good treasures is probably better to just save the wood or the rush won't have a follow up in terms of units.

Not building a TP for the sake of having a better follow up after rushing? (facepalm) I'd much rather delay the market then, unless you're not building that either? Are you randomly talking about a full-retard no eco 12 sepoy rush now?

Fortress based builds aren't really that important imo. Any attempt to semi ff with India seems quite bad.

They may feel better if you build that early TP ')