German FF details

[Papist]

I have been tinkering around with Germans lately, and I have found them to be a very fun civ to play. At the moment, I have been perfecting my FF skills, but am having mixed feelings about a part of it. When aging to colonial, should I go up with 500f and chop for my houses with a couple of SW during colonial? Or should I go up with 400w, and put all of my vils on food and gold during colonial?

[yurashic]

You dont do naked ff with German, you do semi-ff. Naked ff is only good vs Otto and Spain, may be some other fast civs.

- In age 1 if 200 w start build a tp, if 100 c 100 w - market and buy wood, 100 w - nothing. Ship 2 sw. Age with 17 vil pop with 400 w.
- In transition get a market or a tp (or both) depending on what youve built in age 1. Get placer mines, hunting dogs and chop 125 wood for steel traps. Get 1 more house as well.
- Put all sw on gold, all vills on food. Build a stable and 2 houses from 400 wood. Ship 3 sw. Train 5 cav and raid.
- Ship 700 gold and age with age up fast option. Some people ship 700 w and gather all res to age but I dont like this build myself.
- Research gang saw, chop wood for houses. If you started with a tp you can ship 700 wood after 700 gold and dont chop wood.
- Build a rax (optional), upgrade uhlans to veteran and make some stuff, ship military.
- Depending on the MU you can ship 1000 gold after you age to fortress, gather only food and FI, in industrial ship 10 Polish hussars/2 HC.

Hope that helped.

[_venox_]

But he wanted to know about German ff builds, not semi ff builds and here you come and say that you don't do naked ffs, pff...

[gibson]

But he wanted to know about German ff builds, not semi ff builds and here you come and say that you don''t do naked ffs, pff...

well German naked ff is basically shit as you skip 3 settler wagons which is the best age two shipment in the game and can''t really raid too much which is supposed to be one of Germans strong points

[Jaeger]

But he wanted to know about German ff builds, not semi ff builds and here you come and say that you dont do naked ffs, pff...

well German naked ff is basically shit as you skip 3 settler wagons which is the best age two shipment in the game and cant really raid too much which is supposed to be one of Germans strong points

raiding is so overrated

[Kaiserklein]

Germany usually likes to semi ff whenever they can, but vs some rush or fast FF u might need a naked ff. 500f makes it faster but it's really a crap politician so it's usually better to get 400w (plus it enables you to adapt to another build if you need to).

You want to TP asap during transition unless you got it early with 200 wood start. Then you get hunt dogs and placer mines, and with 400 wood you will get 2 houses and 200 extra wood for a later rax/stable. You can chop for steel traps too but i don't think it's relevant, since it will slow you down a lot. If you can afford more eco, you just semi-ff anyway... This build enables you to simply switch into a semi ff by building the stable earlier and sending 3 sw, or counter a rush with some bows by building a rax. Ofc you send 700 gold as a first card, then i guess you can send 700 wood if you age with 6 skirms. If you age fast i don't think you can really afford an extra age 2 shipment.

[gibson]

well German naked ff is basically shit as you skip 3 settler wagons which is the best age two shipment in the game and cant really raid too much which is supposed to be one of Germans strong points

raiding is so overrated

this is why youve never made it past captian.

[Jaeger]

raiding is so overrated

this is why youve never made it past captian.

LOL

[gibson]

this is why youve never made it past captian.

LOL

lets say youre playing a German mirror with two players who are exactly equal skill. One player raids and kills two settlers, one doesnt. Who wins?

[Kaiserklein]

But he wanted to know about German ff builds, not semi ff builds and here you come and say that you dont do naked ffs, pff...

well German naked ff is basically shit as you skip 3 settler wagons which is the best age two shipment in the game and cant really raid too much which is supposed to be one of Germans strong points

Still a naked ff will work vs any build. I mean, in many games a semi ff will be better, but you will never lose your tc by making a naked ff with fast age up. For example vs otto if you dont scout what the guy is doing and you go for a semi, and he make a basic jan rush, you might simply get outmassed hard, not even being able to get 5 uhlans out for the mm trap and all because he harasses you so fast, and lose stable, houses, maybe even tc. If you ff, well you should be fine whetever the otto does. Maybe you will lose in later game cause shitty eco or no raids, maybe you would have better gone semi vs an abus jan or an ff, but at least you wont lose before age 3 lol

Btw ovi is better than capt, just he plays unrated games, and he knows how to raid. No need to be arrogant anyway

[Jaeger]

LOL

lets say youre playing a German mirror with two players who are exactly equal skill. One player raids and kills two settlers, one doesnt. Who wins?

Ofc its good, its just not an essential part at all of how germany wins games. When I was like MS I was asking players why I would loose, all the captains would tell me that I need to do small 2 uhlan raids everywhere because thats how germany wins games which is totally not true.

And now Im saying its overrated (at least in the first 10 minutes of the game) because it relies on a player playing bad and not anticipating a raid or not responding in time. The more the game goes on, the better chance you will kill vills but I think 80% of the value of raiding is just scouting.

[Jaeger]

Germany usually likes to semi ff whenever they can, but vs some rush or fast FF u might need a naked ff. 500f makes it faster but it''s really a crap politician so it''s usually better to get 400w (plus it enables you to adapt to another build if you need to).

You want to TP asap during transition unless you got it early with 200 wood start. Then you get hunt dogs and placer mines, and with 400 wood you will get 2 houses and 200 extra wood for a later rax/stable. You can chop for steel traps too but i don''t think it''s relevant, since it will slow you down a lot. If you can afford more eco, you just semi-ff anyway... This build enables you to simply switch into a semi ff by building the stable earlier and sending 3 sw, or counter a rush with some bows by building a rax. Ofc you send 700 gold as a first card, then i guess you can send 700 wood if you age with 6 skirms. If you age fast i don''t think you can really afford an extra age 2 shipment.

Actually I tried it recently, if you macro really well steel traps will not slow you down at all. Both with and witouth steel traps, you still are limited by when the 700g comes. Tho maybe if you get eaerly TP and 700g consecutive to 3 SW, maybe then you COULD age a bit faster then.

[gibson]

lets say youre playing a German mirror with two players who are exactly equal skill. One player raids and kills two settlers, one doesnt. Who wins?

Ofc its good, its just not an essential part at all of how germany wins games. When I was like MS I was asking players why I would loose, all the captains would tell me that I need to do small 2 uhlan raids everywhere because thats how germany wins games which is totally not true.

so how else are you gonna win games against a similar skill opponent? You have no musk, uhlan are subpar, you have no goons and war wagons arent viable til late game. Skirm uhlan is the most common German combo and it just flat out looses to mass Hussar. If you dont raid, you will literally only win games by being better then the other player.

[rsy]

ESOC.tv stream divinefire vs ovi12 BO5 german mirrors all the way?

Mean while gibs wanna play some 1v1s finally?

[gibson]

lets say youre playing a German mirror with two players who are exactly equal skill. One player raids and kills two settlers, one doesnt. Who wins?

Youre assuming too much. Ofc killing 2 vills automatically is good. But what if you kill none and get your cav trapped. Suddenly you are down 5-10 uhlans in a mirror. Now who wins?

Yea you have to be really careful and I use my Explorer for extra Los as him dying isnt gg while loosing your uhlan can be. A German mirror and playing soiux are the exception to raiding. In these match ups its fine to play more defensive and use your cavs to catch raids.

[_venox_]

It depends on the situation, as stated before. It's not true that without 7/9 uhlan raids Germans can't win games, they still get their 2 per shipment and a shipment based ff can be nice in some situations. Skirm Uhlan doesn't flat out lose to mass huss because of the extra uhlans you get and the extra shipment spam in fortress, plus uhlans will be veteran by then and warwagons are by no means a late game unit, you can send 3 or train 3-5 and the huss will die quickly. And going for an ff doesn't mean that he will never raid with uhlans, you are being close minded about that.
How to win games as Germans? With a bigger and more advanced army and raids: even if it's later, later on it's a bit more effective to raid with 2 uhlans on each side during a battle since later on the enemy will need resources outside his base and will have more villagers unprotected.

[gibson]

ESOC.tv stream divinefire vs ovi12?BO5 german mirrors all the way?

Mean while gibs wanna play some 1v1s finally?

lol I don''t really play this game. I played you China vs India once and flat out lost because it was Tibet and I didn''t know the map and you got every single cows.

[gibson]

It depends on the situation, as stated before. It''s not true that without 7/9 uhlan raids Germans can''t win games, they still get their 2 per shipment and a shipment based ff can be nice in some situations. Skirm Uhlan doesn''t flat out lose to mass huss because of the extra uhlans you get and the extra shipment spam in fortress, plus uhlans will be veteran by then and warwagons are by no means a late game unit, you can send 3 or train 3-5 and the huss will die quickly. And going for an ff doesn''t mean that he will never raid with uhlans, you are being close minded about that.
How to win games as Germans? With a bigger and more advanced army and raids: even if it''s later, later on it''s a bit more effective to raid with 2 uhlans on each side during a battle since later on the enemy will need resources outside his base and will have more villagers unprotected.

obviously there are other factors to winning a game besides just raiding but raiding is almost always better then not raiding is the point I was trying to make.

[_venox_]

raiding is so overrated

this is why youve never made it past captian.

No need to attack his person.

[_venox_]

It depends on the situation, as stated before. Its not true that without 7/9 uhlan raids Germans cant win games, they still get their 2 per shipment and a shipment based ff can be nice in some situations. Skirm Uhlan doesnt flat out lose to mass huss because of the extra uhlans you get and the extra shipment spam in fortress, plus uhlans will be veteran by then and warwagons are by no means a late game unit, you can send 3 or train 3-5 and the huss will die quickly. And going for an ff doesnt mean that he will never raid with uhlans, you are being close minded about that.
How to win games as Germans? With a bigger and more advanced army and raids: even if its later, later on its a bit more effective to raid with 2 uhlans on each side during a battle since later on the enemy will need resources outside his base and will have more villagers unprotected.

obviously there are other factors to winning a game besides just raiding but raiding is almost always better then not raiding is the point I was trying to make.

Have you even read what I wrote? Try again please.

[gibson]

obviously there are other factors to winning a game besides just raiding but raiding is almost always better then not raiding is the point I was trying to make.

Have you even read what I wrote? Try again please.

yes I read the entire thing and agreed with just about all of it so why would I try again?

[_venox_]

Even if Germans go for an ff they will always find ways to raid with their free 2 uhlans per shipment and raiding isn't limited to the 6-8 minute mark, he can raid in fortress too. Also that Ovi wins games even without excessive raiding is evidence for raiding not being the ONLY way Germans win. Sometimes on some maps you will almost never find a way to raid and trade efficiently, so it's better to just scout the hunts your enemy has to take soon and crush your enemy with your fortress spam.
Also the 200 spare wood from the 400 wood age up can be used for a second tp for the bigger fortress spam.

[Kaiserklein]

Ovi steel traps will slow you down, even if you manage to age up in the same time with it (which might be hard with a 100w start for example. You have to show me this), simply because you need to gather 2500 food with steel traps if you want it to pay off. Of course it's not that much, but still in early fortress it means you're slowed down. Maybe only by 1 unit, but when you have only 1 shipment + mm + 1 batch of units out to fight under your tc it can make a difference.

Plus if you get harassed and aren't able to collect much food (which might happen when you straight ff, you are so defenseless), steel traps are even worse because they will pay off really slowly, when your resources are so precious...

Tho as french i would make steel traps even for straight ff, because their early eco is stronger (especially if the german doesn't ship 3 sw) and because units require more food than the german ones.