Germany vs French MU

[Hagi]

Hi,

I don't have much knowledge on MU but I can do search.
Here is a recent post (2015) that I find interesting regarding Russia/French MU (hope it helps)
If someone could add data from the French side, that would be good.


neuron2013 [has Age of Empires? III: Complete Collection] 24 Jan @ 3:04pm
Germany has great eco late game, because of settler wagon gathering as much as 2 normal vills and because Germany can train a huge number of vills with 20 SWs included. If you have some eco cards in deck, their eco can surpass France's eco late game.

Germany is weaker in age 2 vs France, because of lack of musk, but in age 3 Germany is very good maybe better than France. So, a good strategy is to age up with 17 pop vills (when the game starts you have 3 settler wagons = 6 normal vills, you ship 2 SW = 4 vills, and keep making normal vills until you have 17 pop. Around minute 3 and a few seconds you usually start aging up to age 2 with the 400 wood politician. In transition you should get a trading post, to speed up your shipments, if the map has a trading route.

In age 2, start by gathering the 400w from the age up, build a stable and houses, make a market and get food and gold upgrades (if you didn't do it yet, ideally you would start by making a market in age1). Your first shipment should be the 2 SW card, from which you get 2 uhlans too. Then make some uhlan and start raiding his vills. Make sure you scout his base all the time with your explorer so you know which units he's going. If he starts with musks, make a barracks and make bows and later you can ship bows too (make sure you have the age 2 bows shipment in deck). Always herd your hunts close to your base, so he can't raid you. Keep trying to raid him. If he is not rushing you, ship the 700 coin card and after you have the resources, age up to Fortress. Now ship skirms and cav and war wagons and keep the pressure on him. Germany has great shipments in age 3, keep kiting his musks with skirms and block his cav with your cav and war wagons. When you need some siege units, make some dopps. Make sure you never waste units, don't fight a bigger army, always choose which battle you take to your advantage. Keep harassing his vills and dont let him expand his eco on the map. In age 3, as someone already said, you can ship the 1000wood card and get 2 more TCs, so you can make vills from 3 town centers at the same time. Never stop making vills, unless you really have to. The more vills you make the more your eco grows. And make sure you keep spending resources, don't stockpile them. A spent resource is an investment in army, upgrades or eco.

This is a simple explanation of a FF (fast fortress) strategy. You need to make a deck which includes these cards: age 1 ->' 2 settler waggons' age 2 ->' 2 SW, 3 SW, 700 wood, 700 coin, 8bows, 5 uhlan' age 3->' 1000wood, 7 skirms, 8 skirms, 8 uhlan, 9 uhlan, 3 war wagons, mercenaries (optional)' age 4 ->' factories, heavy canons (optional).

[momuuu]

Im not sure how french plays this mu, can musk huss stop a german semi?

[Papist]

Im not sure how french plays this mu, can musk huss stop a german semi?

II think so. Germany is awfully squishy while they are aging up to and immediately after they have reached Fortress. It might be best to hit them the second they age up, to prevent them from sending the 8 xbow card (which is kind of hard to push up against with musk/huss) during transition. This way, you can hit them while they have zero troops in base.

[momuuu]

Or maybe its fine to force the 8 xbows aswell. Its gonna hurt him pretty badly to do so I suppose. And you have huss to kill them off anyways.

However, Dutch can almost manage to do a 5 huss semi against france, so I suppose germany should be able to manage it then, right?

[aligator92]

Having played a lot of Germany lately, I think pushing with pure musk or musk/huss won't get the job done usually. As Germany you can defend with 8 xbox, ur uhlan and mm until u can send a fortress shipment which will clean up and then its fortress germany against colonial french
I struggle most against 5 or 10 huss semis because i can't really raid, in early fortress i run into a lot of Dragoons and in mid-late fortress skirm-goon-cuir just beats skirm-warwagon-uhlan

[lemmings121]

Having played a lot of Germany lately, I think pushing with pure musk or musk/huss won''t get the job done usually. As Germany you can defend with 8 xbox, ur uhlan and mm until u can send a fortress shipment which will clean up and then its fortress germany against colonial french
I struggle most against 5 or 10 huss semis because i can''t really raid, in early fortress i run into a lot of Dragoons and in mid-late fortress skirm-goon-cuir just beats skirm-warwagon-uhlan

yeah, I think that closer to what should happen

I dont play a lot of german, but recently I played a couple games against french, and the standard 5huss semi seems the best way to play it for the french, leaving me with an awkward semiff myself.
(unless german all in xbow/pik, but in this case french can easily defend with standard musk huss)

[Jaeger]

Im not sure how french plays this mu, can musk huss stop a german semi?

Yes French wins.

[Papist]

Or maybe its fine to force the 8 xbows aswell. Its gonna hurt him pretty badly to do so I suppose. And you have huss to kill them off anyways.

However, Dutch can almost manage to do a 5 huss semi against france, so I suppose germany should be able to manage it then, right?

It sorta depends on when you are pushing. If you are pushing in early to mid colonial with a small mass, you would really rather not have an xbow/mm pop to deal with. On the other hand, not having sent 8 xbows enables the German to ship 9 uhlan when he ages. It really depends on the skill of the player as well, as a good base layout and coordinated pops are more than a match for musk/huss.

[ssaraf]

Hey @adv, First of all thanks for making this German vs French MU thread. I am kind of a noob-med player, and it would be great if you could make the first post in this thread more organized for newbies like me.

By organized, i mean you can write Build orders and options for both sides.

Example :

German options are : cav-semi ff, or unpopular xbow-pike

German Semi ff build : 2sw , 3sw , 700g , (700w if possible) , 8skirms/9ulhans (depending on scouting info)

Then some explanation from the german side as you have given.

France options are : Age2 musk huss play , Musk Semi ff , Cav Semi ff.

France Musk semi ff Build : 3cdb , 4cdb , 700c , 8 skirms / 2 cannons (scouting info) ... etc

Then some explanation from the french side.

Or may be tabulate (better option) the above. I think such kind of organization would really help players like me get a quick summary on how to play this MU , no offense but reading paragraphs is a bit painful.

THANKS a lot if you can do this.

[lemmings121]

Hey @adv, First of all thanks for making this German vs French MU thread. I am kind of a noob-med player, and it would be great if you could make the first post in this thread more organized for newbies like me.

By organized, i mean you can write Build orders and options for both sides.

Example :

German options are : cav-semi ff, or unpopular xbow-pike

German Semi ff build : 2sw , 3sw , 700g , (700w if possible) , 8skirms/9ulhans (depending on scouting info)

Then some explanation from the german side as you have given.

France options are : Age2 musk huss play , Musk Semi ff , Cav Semi ff.

France Musk semi ff Build : 3cdb , 4cdb , 700c , 8 skirms / 2 cannons (scouting info) ... etc

Then some explanation from the french side.

Or may be tabulate (better option) the above. I think such kind of organization would really help players like me get a quick summary on how to play this MU , no offense but reading paragraphs is a bit painful.

THANKS a lot if you can do this.

imo you post sums up the Mu very well haha, nice job
will just add this:

I would preffer huss semi as france, only staying colo if forced by the german player, in this case, musk huss.
musket semi against german is a bit awkward.. at least I wouldnt do it

[fei123456]

when i'm playing french i find it difficult to win with a musk hussar timing. german uhlan semi can reach age 3 at 8:00, by which time french dont have enough units to push him hard. minutemen uhlan skirm sw defend this easily.
so what's the better bo? 4cdb 700w 8xbow or 700w 4sw 8xbow?

[fei123456]

french semi just lose to german semi ofc. they have similar eco but german will always have more units due to better shipments.

[[Armag] diarouga]

That s 50/50 depending on the map.
The only viable option for german is the 16 uhlans semi (3sw/700w/700g), that s better than a 9 uhlans semi. The best way to counter that as France is to timing push right when he ages. So go 700w/4v/600w (from that make 10 pikes) and then 700g or 3 huss depending on the strat he chose (16 or 9 uhlans).
Don't overcommit, you'll mass more.

@couprider: many german players only age3 at 8min but that's bad, a good semi 9uhlans is 7min40

[fei123456]

That s 50/50 depending on the map.
The only viable option for german is the 16 uhlans semi (3sw/700w/700g), that s better than a 9 uhlans semi. The best way to counter that as France is to timing push right when he ages. So go 700w/4v/600w (from that make 10 pikes) and then 700g or 3 huss depending on the strat he chose (16 or 9 uhlans).
Don''t overcommit, you''ll mass more.

@couprider: many german players only age3 at 8min but that''s bad, a good semi 9uhlans is 7min40

yeah but i just dont have enough units at 8:00. but at 9:00 i may have more. so why 16 uhlan is better than 9?
and 4cdb 700w 600w may be better? with 700w i can have hussar and musk in early age 2, but that''s not a must vs early uhlan raid. with 4cdb first i can have better eco and can choose to semiff too or do a timing later.

[[Armag] diarouga]

That s 50/50 depending on the map.
The only viable option for german is the 16 uhlans semi (3sw/700w/700g), that s better than a 9 uhlans semi. The best way to counter that as France is to timing push right when he ages. So go 700w/4v/600w (from that make 10 pikes) and then 700g or 3 huss depending on the strat he chose (16 or 9 uhlans).
Dont overcommit, youll mass more.

@couprider: many german players only age3 at 8min but thats bad, a good semi 9uhlans is 7min40

yeah but i just dont have enough units at 8:00. but at 9:00 i may have more. so why 16 uhlan is better than 9?
and 4cdb 700w 600w may be better? with 700w i can have hussar and musk in early age 2, but thats not a must vs early uhlan raid. with 4cdb first i can have better eco and can choose to semiff too or do a timing later.

At 9-10 min you will have enough units but again dont overcommit.
16uhlans is better because the german will have 700w so vet uhlans asap and hell have enough uhlans to cover his 8 skirms shipment (uhlans are op).
hum if you go 4cdbs/700w/600w youll have too many huss and not enough musks so 700w 1st is better.

[Jaeger]

yeah but i just dont have enough units at 8:00. but at 9:00 i may have more. so why 16 uhlan is better than 9?
and 4cdb 700w 600w may be better? with 700w i can have hussar and musk in early age 2, but thats not a must vs early uhlan raid. with 4cdb first i can have better eco and can choose to semiff too or do a timing later.

At 9-10 min you will have enough units but again dont overcommit.
16uhlans is better because the german will have 700w so vet uhlans asap and hell have enough uhlans to cover his 8 skirms shipment (uhlans are op).
hum if you go 4cdbs/700w/600w youll have too many huss and not enough musks so 700w 1st is better.

So you can hold french 10 minute push with just 16 uhlans and mm? You might even have a few less uhlans if you get caught or you get idled and dont fill a batch

[[Armag] diarouga]

At 9-10 min you will have enough units but again dont overcommit.
16uhlans is better because the german will have 700w so vet uhlans asap and hell have enough uhlans to cover his 8 skirms shipment (uhlans are op).
hum if you go 4cdbs/700w/600w youll have too many huss and not enough musks so 700w 1st is better.

So you can hold french 10 minute push with just 16 uhlans and mm? You might even have a few less uhlans if you get caught or you get idled and dont fill a batch

23-24 vet uhlans+8skirms+mm

[fei123456]

So you can hold french 10 minute push with just 16 uhlans and mm? You might even have a few less uhlans if you get caught or you get idled and dont fill a batch

23-24 vet uhlans+8skirms+mms*

another question
how much wood should german chop during transition? if i build a tp in age 1, i should chop market(100) hunting dog(50) placer mine(75)? or steel trap(125)? but still i only have 40 pops as i build stable and 2 houses with 400w and its easy to get popped.

[[Armag] diarouga]

23-24 vet uhlans+8skirms+mms*

another question
how much wood should german chop during transition? if i build a tp in age 1, i should chop market(100) hunting dog(50) placer mine(75)? or steel trap(125)? but still i only have 40 pops as i build stable and 2 houses with 400w and its easy to get popped.

100 market+50 food up+75 placer mine+100w for a house so youre not popped with 50 pop.

[pecelot]

musket semi against german is a bit awkward.. at least I wouldnt do it

You can always camp in your base with 5-10 musks so that his uhlans wont do anything.

mms*

Minutemen.

[fei123456]

musket semi against german is a bit awkward.. at least I wouldnt do it

You can always camp in your base with 5-10 musks so that his uhlans wont do anything.

mms*

Minutemen.

yes you can defend with a few musks but germans aim is not to kill many cdbs. german only need to age up safely without losing much. german has about same eco with french (3sw>4cdb), but their age 3 units are defenitely better. a musk semi wont change that.

[lemmings121]

You can always camp in your base with 5-10 musks so that his uhlans wont do anything.

Minutemen.

yes you can defend with a few musks but germans aim is not to kill many cdbs. german only need to age up safely without losing much. german has about same eco with french (3sw>'4cdb), but their age 3 units are defenitely better. a musk semi wont change that.

Yes. and you can also defend against a ~~9uhlan semi with just 5 huss semi, ending up with a usefull unit, instead of musks in fortress that arent that great..

[britishmusketeer]

Germans win. There is no way French can push into a well built german base when they age and semi ff loses since germans have a similar economy but significantly more units.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Germans win. There is no way French can push into a well built german base when they age and semi ff loses since germans have a similar economy but significantly more units.

A timing can work really.

[Jaeger]

So you can hold french 10 minute push with just 16 uhlans and mm? You might even have a few less uhlans if you get caught or you get idled and dont fill a batch

23-24 vet uhlans+8skirms+mm

Lol idk why i said 10 minutes i meant 8 minutes