Japan NR 40

[dicktator]

I'm really bored so I'll clarify a few things.

1. Japan is op on Andes because of their ability to push and to run/jump, even there Japan is only op out of nats.

2. Japan is slightly op on Orinoco but only if they do one specific strat. They have to put mortars on their side of the river and use them to hammer down their opponents Eco walls. Then they have to run daiymos through the gap.

3. Otto lose to Dutch out of nats. Dutch lose to India and yet Otto can do ok vs India. It's weird.

4. Brits beat Russia heads up. It's the running and opri flanking etc that make Russia op.

[thebritish]

Brit can beat all civilisations in tier 1 and below and maybe lose to china (because of eco), (japan, no real counter and slightly better eco) and to france (because no halberdiers to counter gendarme spam).
No real counter to Japan? What you mean with that? Also, halbs are not a reason you can win vs French. French [strike]beat[/strike] everything. they dont

Theres no way russia can beat brits because russia have worser eco, and their oprichiks don make any harm to brits.
Oprichniks in general dont make any harm.
Why?
-Because you can kill 20 villagers as russia and by the time you get away from their base, they have already made those 20 villagers again from the manors.
No high-level players uses the card that lets you make villagers from your manors.

if somebody is high level player, doesnt mean he acts like high level ingame for certain situations/cards

[gibson]

Literally no brit tr player above probably pr17 will have the Manor card in deck.....

[thebritish]

Literally no brit tr player above probably pr17 will have the Manor card in deck.....

pls give me atleast 2 reasons why that card is bad and what you would put instead of it?

[gibson]

Literally no brit tr player above probably pr17 will have the Manor card in deck.....

pls give me atleast 2 reasons why that card is bad and what you would put instead of it?

I can tell you its bad because you dont need it and you dont have an extra card to send it. I dont know the standard tr deck but someone else can tell you that

[Cometk]

it's unnecessary for the boom' you have to sink four shipments into cow cards, you have no more time to send any more eco cards pre-40. it's used in nr20, but that's a different deal

are you really going to cut cav HP or musketeer attack for a superfluous eco card? here are your typical decks:

[spoiler]{40}[img alt=" " src="http://i.imgur.com/MGsm08B.png[/img][/spoiler]
[spoiler]{40 nats (typical 1v1)}[img alt=" " src="http://i.imgur.com/aQc9Q4a.png[/img][/spoiler]
[spoiler]{55}[img alt=" " src="http://i.imgur.com/MxdrVbM.png[/img][/spoiler]
[spoiler]{55 nats}[img alt=" " src="http://i.imgur.com/k0pIEsj.png[/img][/spoiler]

[illmatic]

dutch have 50 vills. 150 military pop seems awesome but you can only sustain it for so long. spain has missionaries that give 67% attack, and russia is the best running civ and their units are very cost effective. but idk i think spain is tier 2 outside of nats but they almost never are.

Dutch has 150 pop and that probably is their biggest strength, It means you can just go for an insane push at start. iirc dutch can start with 200+ military pop. Managing 150 pop is difficult and most players cant maintain it on continuous basis therefore drain fast otherwise dutch can play for quite a long time. Spain has 62% not 67% attack boost. True that their units do more attack but its not that much. Spain does not receive any cards for skirmishers, if you look at dutch they get 30% hp and 30% attack boost. So the real difference between both units is very low because spain gets more attack but they die faster because of low hp. Also remember spain only gets 91 military pop. If you know anything about the tr for the past month or so you should know spain lost 90% of its games at high level.(at least what I saw ). If you take enough map control russia cant run. If you do nothing and let russia abuse it you shouldnt cry about russia being running civ lol. True russia has most effective units, but it matters less in tr. In sup you can mass more than your opponent quite fast something which you cant do in tr. 100 skirms>'100 sterlets. Its like you are asking ports to fight another ports with much weaker units and same max pop. There is no way you win it unless you win decisively in art war.

Thats like saying you should just delete all vills and go out for an all out push and if youre good enough you shouldnt drain. Against equally skilled players, that never works. Notice how none of the top tier treaty players play dutch in competitive games. And iirc spain had 67 or 66% boost to their attack, and their skirms are better than dutch skirms imo. Spain should roll over dutch with skirm/lance/rod. Remember, unctioned lancers 1-hit kill skirms, and dutch cant really afford huss. Just because spain lost 90% of its matchups in the last month doesnt mean that its a bad civ, it just means that spain players have been outplayed. Havent seen too much spain lately anyways, just brit ger port and some otto. And lol, taking map control from a Russia is easier said than done. "Russia has most effective units but it matters less in tr". Huh? It still matters A LOT. You cant compare 100 skirms to 100 strelet because that never happens. Ive also made stupid comparisons like that. You have to compare the cost effectiveness and unit composition.

[princeofcarthage]

No i am not saying you should delete vills and push but a well executed push should by dutch or an extreme camping is more likely to win you games compared to otto. Remember dutch has weak eco because its 88 vills against 150 military pop if it was 88 against 100 its still decent. Remember the discussion is about why dutch is below otto and not above it. Dutch has higher chance of winning against civ than otto. Spain its http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Miss ... mpires_III) 62% with all 10 missionaries. Secondly again it is not about spain vs dutch. Spain loses to all tier 1 civs then why its in tier 1. Its not that hard if you are good multi tasking to take map control. it was just an example about 100 skirm vs 100 sterlet. Learn to know what it exactly means. For ex in tr lets assume there is russia which can train skirms then that russia >'>'>'>'>'>'>'>'>'>'>'>'>'>' russia with sterlets. why? Because at same pop unit lose their cost effectiveness. You would be having about 40 skirm pop in your army. Imagine like I said 40 sterlets will die much faster compared to 40 skirms which means snowball effect will be favoring skirms for most of the time. That also means you are likely to produce less skirms which almost equals the production cost for weaker but cost effective units. If you have player with equal fight skill russia is likely to produce 2-2.5x units compared to port/brit. Also russia cant really handle splits they have to fight at one place, they need units in mass to actually make some effect. People make 3 layers of wall and then expect a heads up fight without scouting army and then they cry about not able to handle the box now that doesn't make sense. Also when you see the box even tho its late you should just kill your start army and make goons/huss instead of moving whole army back and losing base in process lol.

[charlemagen]

No i am not saying you should delete vills and push but a well executed push should by dutch or an extreme camping is more likely to win you games compared to otto. Remember dutch has weak eco because its 88 vills against 150 military pop if it was 88 against 100 its still decent. Remember the discussion is about why dutch is below otto and not above it. Dutch has higher chance of winning against civ than otto. Spain its http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Miss ... mpires_III) 62% with all 10 missionaries. Secondly again it is not about spain vs dutch. Spain loses to all tier 1 civs then why its in tier 1. Its not that hard if you are good multi tasking to take map control. it was just an example about 100 skirm vs 100 sterlet. Learn to know what it exactly means. For ex in tr lets assume there is russia which can train skirms then that russia >'>'>'>'>'>'>'>'>'>'>'>'>'>' russia with sterlets. why? Because at same pop unit lose their cost effectiveness. You would be having about 40 skirm pop in your army. Imagine like I said 40 sterlets will die much faster compared to 40 skirms which means snowball effect will be favoring skirms for most of the time. That also means you are likely to produce less skirms which almost equals the production cost for weaker but cost effective units. If you have player with equal fight skill russia is likely to produce 2-2.5x units compared to port/brit. Also russia cant really handle splits they have to fight at one place, they need units in mass to actually make some effect. People make 3 layers of wall and then expect a heads up fight without scouting army and then they cry about not able to handle the box now that doesn''t make sense. Also when you see the box even tho its late you should just kill your start army and make goons/huss instead of moving whole army back and losing base in process lol.

Spain only loses to germ and Brit in natives, if the two civs can defend well enough until HC or rocket/Cherokee come out. before that Spain is going to win if skills are even. That being said, a split push can murder spain. Out of nats Spain isn''t very good imo. Otto has 100x more versatility then dutch, and do way better vs high tier civs the dutch can, so it makes dutch the worse civ. The fact that dutch rolls otto is really only due to the fact that dutch has a massive army and otto simply cant keep up.