Most Fair Match-ups

[Kaiserklein]

Why do people keep saying russ musks suck ? Just try a battle of normal musks vs russ musks with same investment on both sides, and you will see russ musks win... It's just that in early colonial when they only have 5 russ musks they are really weak against a batch of huss, butlater it doesn't make any difference except pop space

[_venox_]

I don't think it has to do with cost and stats but rather that Russian musketeers take in more space' imagine if one player has 30 musketeers and the russian player has 40 musketeers (both are the same cost): from both sides about 20 musketeers get to fire' 20 russian musketeers (= 1500 res) get to shoot and 20 regular musketeers (= 2000 res, 33% more) get to shoot, who do you think will win?
It's not that the stats for their cost is bad but rather that they have less resource / space they take in. And against hussars it's the same' When hussars attack regular musketeers, a bigger percentage per cost get into melee (preferred mode to take down cavalry).

[gibson]

Why do people keep saying russ musks suck ? Just try a battle of normal musks vs russ musks with same investment on both sides, and you will see russ musks win... It''s just that in early colonial when they only have 5 russ musks they are really weak against a batch of huss, butlater it doesn''t make any difference except pop space

also due to the fact that they train in batches it takes a while to actually be able to get out more musks then your opponent. Or, if you''re playing a French guy he just catches batch after batch of musk and kills them with his ever increasing cav army.... If the cav player micros well 5 huss can kill 5 Russia musk without loosing 1 hussar....

[Garja]

The fact that they train in batches in not relevant to that. They obviously train faster than normal musks asides from the very beginning at any given time russia should have the equivalent amount of army of any other civ.

[gibson]

The fact that they train in batches in not relevant to that. They obviously train faster than normal musks asides from the very beginning at any given time russia should have the equivalent amount of army of any other civ.

it''s actually very relevant early game because even though Russian musks are cheaper and train faster they ultimately come out at the same speed or maybe even slower because you need like 350 resources to start a batch while a standard musk civ only needs 100 resources to start a batch....

[Garja]

That's only for like the first 2 batches of units.

[gibson]

That''s only for like the first 2 batches of units.

Yea like I said it''s relevant very early game.....

[Hazza54321]

That''s only for like the first 2 batches of units.

yes but russias eco is so slow that you get equal number of musk as civs like french and brit early on

[momuuu]

I am not sure that is true, as russia still has to pressure. They dont know that Dutch is staying colonial.

whats not true?

That the russian player has to mess up to lose.

Look, maybe in some theoretical ideal world, russia always beats colonial dutch, but in practice, if they know dutch it might be 66/33 or something like that. Now add that in a third of the games or so, the russian player will be surprised by the Dutch player not going to fortress and it might make it 50/50. I already a fair percentage of the games in this mu by making more units than they expect me to make, crushing their army trying to punish and age up that is not yet the case.

[Garja]

Thats only for like the first 2 batches of units.

yes but russias eco is so slow that you get equal number of musk as civs like french and brit early on

You shouldnt. Also thats where you make a batch of strelets.

[gibson]

whats not true?

That the russian player has to mess up to lose.?

Look, maybe in some theoretical ideal world, russia always beats colonial dutch, but in practice, if they know dutch it might be 66/33 or something like that. Now add that in a third of the games or so, the russian player will be surprised by the Dutch player not going to fortress and it might make it 50/50. I already a fair percentage of the games in this mu by making more units than they expect me to make, crushing their army trying to punish and age up that is not yet the case.

all Im saying is if both players are equally skilled and the Russian player doesnt slip up, if dutch stays age 2 they will loose the vast majority of match ups. Dutch is just to slow to be able to punish an economic Russian start that will result in Russia having an insane mass by the time the Dutch player is ready to make a play for map. Ofc Dutch can just win that by going age 3 and going ryt skirm or even ryt falc but thats totally irrelevant because I was talking about pure age 2 play

[momuuu]

That the russian player has to mess up to lose.

Look, maybe in some theoretical ideal world, russia always beats colonial dutch, but in practice, if they know dutch it might be 66/33 or something like that. Now add that in a third of the games or so, the russian player will be surprised by the Dutch player not going to fortress and it might make it 50/50. I already a fair percentage of the games in this mu by making more units than they expect me to make, crushing their army trying to punish and age up that is not yet the case.

all Im saying is if both players are equally skilled and the Russian player doesnt slip up, if dutch stays age 2 they will loose the vast majority of match ups. Dutch is just to slow to be able to punish an economic Russian start that will result in Russia having an insane mass by the time the Dutch player is ready to make a play for map. Ofc Dutch can just win that by going age 3 and going ryt skirm or even ryt falc but thats totally irrelevant because I was talking about pure age 2 play

Russia cant go for an economic start because then Dutch ages, so thats a faulty reasoning to start with. When Dutch does pure age 2 play, it doesnt mean that the russian player knows that, that is very much the faulty assumption that you are making. Unless you want to argue that russia can reliably scout that Dutch is staying colonial (spoiler, its impossible to scout it).

[gibson]

all Im saying is if both players are equally skilled and the Russian player doesnt slip up, if dutch stays age 2 they will loose the vast majority of match ups. Dutch is just to slow to be able to punish an economic Russian start that will result in Russia having an insane mass by the time the Dutch player is ready to make a play for map. Ofc Dutch can just win that by going age 3 and going ryt skirm or even ryt falc but thats totally irrelevant because I was talking about pure age 2 play

Russia cant go for an economic start because then Dutch ages, so thats a faulty reasoning to start with. When Dutch does pure age 2 play, it doesnt mean that the russian player knows that, that is very much the faulty assumption that you are making. Unless you want to argue that russia can reliably scout that Dutch is staying colonial (spoiler, its impossible to scout it).

I would assume that seeing more than one military building going down would be clear enough.....

[momuuu]

Russia cant go for an economic start because then Dutch ages, so thats a faulty reasoning to start with. When Dutch does pure age 2 play, it doesnt mean that the russian player knows that, that is very much the faulty assumption that you are making. Unless you want to argue that russia can reliably scout that Dutch is staying colonial (spoiler, its impossible to scout it).

I would assume that seeing more than one military building going down would be clear enough.....

Well, I wish you the best of luck assuming dutch is playing colonial every single game.

[Hazza54321]

I would assume that seeing more than one military building going down would be clear enough.....

Well, I wish you the best of luck assuming dutch is playing colonial every single game.

russia should do an eco 5 coss 15 musk semi everygame vs dutch as they cant punish it effectively

[gibson]

I would assume that seeing more than one military building going down would be clear enough.....

Well, I wish you the best of luck assuming dutch is playing colonial every single game.?

if I scouted a barracks and stable or double barracks going down its probably not a bad assumption that theyre staying age 2.....either way you can go 5 Cossack followed by 700 wood is it looks like dutch is staying age 2 or 4 Cossack if they start stable.....

[momuuu]

Well, I wish you the best of luck assuming dutch is playing colonial every single game.

if I scouted a barracks and stable or double barracks going down its probably not a bad assumption that theyre staying age 2.....either way you can go 5 Cossack followed by 700 wood is it looks like dutch is staying age 2 or 4 Cossack if they start stable.....

it is a bad assumption. A very bad one.

[gibson]

Well, I wish you the best of luck assuming dutch is playing colonial every single game.?

russia should do an eco 5 coss 15 musk semi everygame vs dutch as they cant punish it effectively

Im pretty sure Russia just looses to an unpunished age 3 Dutch and 5 cos 15 musk isnt gonna do a whole lot of damage vs 40 wood worth of wall and 5 skirms....

[Kaiserklein]

I don''t think it has to do with cost and stats but rather that Russian musketeers take in more space' imagine if one player has 30 musketeers and the russian player has 40 musketeers (both are the same cost): from both sides about 20 musketeers get to fire' 20 russian musketeers (= 1500 res) get to shoot and 20 regular musketeers (= 2000 res, 33% more) get to shoot, who do you think will win?
It''s not that the stats for their cost is bad but rather that they have less resource / space they take in. And against hussars it''s the same' When hussars attack regular musketeers, a bigger percentage per cost get into melee (preferred mode to take down cavalry).

Ok so as I said, make a fight with any number of russ musks vs the same cost of normal musks. Just attack move or even let them fight on their own, russian musks will win, so what you said can''t be relevant.
Btw, if you want to take this kind of things into account, you can also say that russian musks are more overkilled than normal musks, so are more efficient...

[gibson]

if I scouted a barracks and stable or double barracks going down its probably not a bad assumption that theyre staying age 2.....either way you can go 5 Cossack followed by 700 wood is it looks like dutch is staying age 2 or 4 Cossack if they start stable.....

it is a bad assumption. A very bad one.

So youre Dutch semi ff usually involves dropping 2 military buildings in age 2? Interesting that I have never ever seen that from any Dutch player who was semi ff but I guess you theoretically could...

[Kaiserklein]

And yeah except for the very first batches, when having to sack resources matters a lot, the russ can just get a fine mass of musks in the rest of the game. Also don't forget they begin to produce army earlier than most other civs...

[momuuu]

it is a bad assumption. A very bad one.

So youre Dutch semi ff usually involves dropping 2 military buildings in age 2? Interesting that I have never ever seen that from any Dutch player who was semi ff but I guess you theoretically could...

You drop military buildings from the wood crates you gather. Its 100% standard, you just never looked at a Dutch build thoroughly and are talking about things you are imagining or something.

[gibson]

So youre Dutch semi ff usually involves dropping 2 military buildings in age 2? Interesting that I have never ever seen that from any Dutch player who was semi ff but I guess you theoretically could...

You drop military buildings from the wood crates you gather. Its 100% standard, you just never looked at a Dutch build thoroughly and are talking about things you are imagining or something.

I dont see how thats relevant.... A semi ff Dutch will always drop 1 military structure and either go 5 hus or 8-10 skirm then age. An age 2 Dutch would drop a stable and a barracks or maybe 2 barracks idk..... Its really not that hard to scout how many military buildings someone is making Tbh....

[momuuu]

You drop military buildings from the wood crates you gather. Its 100% standard, you just never looked at a Dutch build thoroughly and are talking about things you are imagining or something.

I dont see how thats relevant.... A semi ff Dutch will always drop 1 military structure and either go 5 hus or 8-10 skirm then age. An age 2 Dutch would drop a stable and a barracks or maybe 2 barracks idk..... Its really not that hard to scout how many military buildings someone is making Tbh....

Have you ever played dutch? semi ff often drops second military build after 2nd shipment, so theres nothing to scout. even if he drops 2 rax it can still be a semi.

[Hazza54321]

russia should do an eco 5 coss 15 musk semi everygame vs dutch as they cant punish it effectively

Im pretty sure Russia just looses to an unpunished age 3 Dutch and 5 cos 15 musk isnt gonna do a whole lot of damage vs 40 wood worth of wall and 5 skirms....

russias later fortress is better and most dutch players start huss vs russia anyway