India vs Germ Treaty

United States of America evilcheadar
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India vs Germ Treaty

Post by evilcheadar »

I'm sorry but India vs Russia in equal skill MU is just no contest win for Russia pretty much all the time.
1. Cossacks are a much more efficient unit than sowars or mahouts lancers
2. Opprichniks vs flail elephents? forget about it
3. How does india stop Russian fort hopping straight into its base? It doesn't really. So India tries with few 300wood 400gold siege elephants...which get killed by Cossacks/culvrin because India can't replenish and full pop enough sepoys to defend like 35 pop worth of siege elephants. If you get the fort down Russia builds a new one and chances are you lost at least a few of your siege elephant so you lose more resources with each go.
4. Russia can get horse guns, India can't unless form your one slow consulate.
5. Russia repopulates lost military much faster
6. Russia in general will makes better unit/resource trades the longer you fight out front of a fort.
7. Forget about urumi, who has the time to wait for that much population of units to come in that can be taken down by Cossack?
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India vs Germ Treaty

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

yeah but I also think it was slightly map specific in that he was able to put up 8 layers of walls and have 2 protecting his eco, Outside his walls he could not gain any ground but inside I got trapped and couldn't do much once I got through them to flank or have any more steam to push through. So i think its about even and terrain specific.

as for russia, I maintain what I said. because I have played them enough. You don't really need that many mahouts vs russia. no need to compare opri to flail ele as opri raids are russias main tactic, using flail elephants in that way is not similar use, Indian stops fort hoping it with superior infantry that causes russia to constantly spam for inefficient kill ratios. India gets tigers to target cannon as well as siege eles, yes siege eles have some problems. I also often gen spies in a 1v1 matchup to stop that 1 musketeer from making new fort. don't underestimate urumi, they are one of the best units in the game and save you from a hlab spam to your siege eles, you que them up when your at 199 pop. you could probobally win this with just sepoy and siege eles and tigers. but you dont use tigers.
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India vs Germ Treaty

Post by evilcheadar »

howlingwolfpaw wrote:yeah but I also think it was slightly map specific in that he was able to put up 8 layers of walls and have 2 protecting his eco, Outside his walls he could not gain any ground but inside I got trapped and couldn''t do much once I got through them to flank or have any more steam to push through. So i think its about even and terrain specific.

as for russia, I maintain what I said. because I have played them enough. You don''t really need that many mahouts vs russia. no need to compare opri to flail ele as opri raids are russias main tactic, using flail elephants in that way is not similar use, Indian stops fort hoping it with superior infantry that causes russia to constantly spam for inefficient kill ratios. India gets tigers to target cannon as well as siege eles, yes siege eles have some problems. I also often gen spies in a 1v1 matchup to stop that 1 musketeer from making new fort. don''t underestimate urumi, they are one of the best units in the game and save you from a hlab spam to your siege eles, you que them up when your at 199 pop. you could probobally win this with just sepoy and siege eles and tigers. but you dont use tigers.
I''m open to using tigers, if they were really as great as they''re made out to be. There''s a lot of clicks involved in queing up tigers that should probably go to gurk. Not to mention you have to micro the tigers well to kill cannon.
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India vs Germ Treaty

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

they are like hussars with no natural counters, they attack fast and in close quarters. it makes the difference in the battle for sure. fill roles as meat shield, artillrty and skirm hunters, good at goons and even muskets. why do you play India if you down play everything they got? what do you like about them?I dont think you know how to use this civ to its full potential which is why i recommend watching a boom video because you should be imperial at 16-17 mins not 21. urumi have the fastest rate of attack in the whole game at 50% faster than any hand attack unit.
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Post by Cometk »

evilcheadar wrote:I''m sorry but India vs Russia in equal skill MU is just no contest win for Russia pretty much all the time.
1. Cossacks are a much more efficient unit than sowars or mahouts lancers
2. Opprichniks vs flail elephents? forget about it
3. How does india stop Russian fort hopping straight into its base? It doesn''t really. So India tries with few 300wood 400gold siege elephants...which get killed by Cossacks/culvrin because India can''t replenish and full pop enough sepoys to defend like 35 pop worth of siege elephants. If you get the fort down Russia builds a new one and chances are you lost at least a few of your siege elephant so you lose more resources with each go.
4. Russia can get horse guns, India can''t unless form your one slow consulate.
5. Russia repopulates lost military much faster
6. Russia in general will makes better unit/resource trades the longer you fight out front of a fort.
7. Forget about urumi, who has the time to wait for that much population of units to come in that can be taken down by Cossack?

all of this is true, hence my inclination to favor russia in this matchup. india has no way to deal with russia''s map presence while simultaneously aggressing a position for themselves' india needs to invest a lot of population in one spot to either hold or push, where russia has the flexibility to instantly correct their unit count at any point on the map.

cossacks are pretty good at swinging small engagements around the map but as an overall compositional supplement they struggle to break india''s composition if they''re going heavy on sepoy and howdah. and in general, it''s difficult for russia to break a barrel-on push of sepoy/howdah. if the russian commits to a high strelet count, india can dispatch it with 2-3 mahouts. about the best you can hope for as russia from that position is to be able to pop 15 coss from a stable before the mahout wave can hit your inf mass. it''s still difficult to imagine though, as this is essentially the perfect situation. needs a little more testing imo
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Post by howlingwolfpaw »

India can deal with map presence because it can easily and quiclky build FB chasing and bringing down russian forts. and if the russian is jumping that much they are going to have a tougher time providing support stables and foundry's. once India sets up near their base russia has a hard time getting rid of it as their units can't fight India head on and its so easily rebuilt if they use opri or even mortars, That's where you can then send the 23 chakrams and war eles and tigers while defending your base with 10-15 sepoy and 2-3 howda's if they are sending in a raid. Its an annoying fight for India but I think superior units beat out inferior ones in the long run. I wouldn't even play India in FFA if they lost to russia because so many people use them. And I have had some 1v1's and that's hows its all gone down. You take out thier FB with your amazing start army and leave your gends in your walls to kill the opri box then rush to his walls and set up. if u get caught off guard use peace treaty and defend walls.
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Post by charlemagen »

You guys keep comparing the level of treaty you play to the a higher level. Things are going to be different at your level
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Post by evilcheadar »

charlemagen wrote:You guys keep comparing the level of treaty you play to the a higher level. Things are going to be different at your level
How are things different our level o holy one.
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Post by dicktator »

If Russia split pushes and uses the whole map then there is no way for India to win. If Russia plays heads up then India has the advantage. India vs German is heavily German favored except out of nats on Andes, where it is kind of close and slightly favors German (the longer the games goes the more it favors german).

Edit: actually maybe on Deccan on the plateau India can beat German by deleting vills, destroying the start fight, and pushing hard with sepoy mahout.
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Post by evilcheadar »

charlemagen wrote:You guys keep comparing the level of treaty you play to the a higher level. Things are going to be different at your level


Nothing''s different, Russia v India is still just as one sided.
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Post by sc »

dicktator wrote:Edit: actually maybe on Deccan on the plateau India can beat German by deleting vills, destroying the start fight, and pushing hard with sepoy mahout.



nah men ger will always be able to delete more vils than india and will be in better shape macro wise.

Ger should just delete 70-80 vils vs india in almost any matchup and win based on food production IMO

source: zero experience
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Post by howlingwolfpaw »

whats a good german score? I usually see about 2400 or so in nr 40. India is about 2300 so eco wise its pretty close i think. but does favor germs in longer games if India runs out of coin. I think its a pretty fair matchup map dependent.
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Post by sc »

howlingwolfpaw wrote:whats a good german score? I usually see about 2400 or so in nr 40. India is about 2300 so eco wise its pretty close i think. but does favor germs in longer games if India runs out of coin. I think its a pretty fair matchup map dependent.
2600 team game and 2700+ in 1v1 is a top tier ger boom.
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Post by jacksonpollock »

This match up is basically unwinnable. Germany is so OP in treaty, their economy is just impossible to compete against. Match ups like this show that the game was not balanced with treaty in mind (at least, not balanced well).
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Post by charlemagen »

germany is actually very balanced
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Post by jacksonpollock »

charlemagen wrote:germany is actually very balanced
I don''t play much treaty but it seems like they have a huge upper hand, eco-wise.
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Post by howlingwolfpaw »

from what I understand the civs were not designed for treaty at all as it was a feature added in asian dynasties. I looked at dictators 1v1. out of 4 games where india and germany matched up 3x india won 1 times germany won. (in one game he was germany and lost to india) Not huge numbers to compare but my own numbers are similar too. with 4 wins and 2 losses vs germany as india.9one loss was to a Lt. coloniel who far out ranks me)
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Post by jacksonpollock »

howlingwolfpaw wrote:from what I understand the civs were not designed for treaty at all as it was a feature added in asian dynasties. I looked at dictators 1v1. out of 4 games where india and germany matched up 3x india won 1 times germany won. (in one game he was germany and lost to india) Not huge numbers to compare but my own numbers are similar too. with 4 wins and 2 losses vs germany as india.9one loss was to a Lt. coloniel who far out ranks me)
I''m not sure who that is, but can''t Germany pretty much out boom any other civ because they get so many settlers?
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Post by sc »

jacksonpollock wrote:
howlingwolfpaw wrote:from what I understand the civs were not designed for treaty at all as it was a feature added in asian dynasties. I looked at dictators 1v1. out of 4 games where india and germany matched up 3x india won 1 times germany won. (in one game he was germany and lost to india) Not huge numbers to compare but my own numbers are similar too. with 4 wins and 2 losses vs germany as india.9one loss was to a Lt. coloniel who far out ranks me)
Im not sure who that is, but cant Germany pretty much out boom any other civ because they get so many settlers?
china and iroquois boom higher than Ger, and in certain situations brit can out boom them if they get cows/llamas from mother nature.
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Post by jacksonpollock »

sc wrote:
jacksonpollock wrote:Im not sure who that is, but cant Germany pretty much out boom any other civ because they get so many settlers?
china and iroquois boom higher than Ger, and in certain situations brit can out boom them if they get cows/llamas from mother nature.
Iroquois really can? I dont think Ive ever seen someone play them in treaty lol
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Post by sc »

jacksonpollock wrote:
sc wrote:china and iroquois boom higher than Ger, and in certain situations brit can out boom them if they get cows/llamas from mother nature.
Iroquois really can? I dont think Ive ever seen someone play them in treaty lol
Yeah, with 119 vils, livestock, and fur trade Iroquois can hit 3k. Sorta need an ideal base posi though as Iro has a sprawling eco, so a more consistent score would be more like 2850 (no BB card)
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