brits vs. french cav-semi-ff

arkz · Post by **arkz** » 23 Oct 2015, 10:38

Hi,

I was wondering what the best approach as a brit vs french cav-semi-ff is. I generally don't really spend any time thinking about aoe-strategy except while I'm playing. So, with brits I mainly just start with musks and adapt to what my opponent is doing. However, I feel that sometimes musk are just too slow to effectively catch/prevent raids. Also, I'm not really a fan of using cannons in a non-aggressive manner (they're just so immobile and once ure resources are on different locations..well) so musks tend to become kind of useless in age 3. I simply prefer lb-dragoon.

So, is making pikes more advisable? I just thought that maybe getting some pikes vs. raids, sending 700w, then 700g to age could be a good idea?
(Haven't really tried it so far.)

I guess my main problem about that is that as a brit you just age up so slow. But on the other hand not aging up and fighting age2 vs. age 3 doesn't feel right, as well. Oh, and ofc if you want to go lb-dragoon then you will really be in a bad situation if the opponent comes right after you're age-up with a cannon army because you won't have many dragoons to kill the cannons.

Thanks for your answers.

arriah · Post by **arriah** » 23 Oct 2015, 10:53

Are outposts near res source not enough? Maybe posting groups of musks around vills? Doing a pike/lb boom?

Marco1698 · Post by **Marco1698** » 23 Oct 2015, 11:31

As brits just spam full musk and try to kill the Tc. If you can't add hussars because you will need them vs skirms. Even dragoons skirms > hussars musk

britishmusketeer · Post by **britishmusketeer** » 23 Oct 2015, 11:32

arkz wrote:Hi,

I was wondering what the best approach as a brit vs french cav-semi-ff is. I generally don''t really spend any time thinking about aoe-strategy except while I''m playing. So, with brits I mainly just start with musks and adapt to what my opponent is doing. However, I feel that sometimes musk are just too slow to effectively catch/prevent raids. Also, I''m not really a fan of using cannons in a non-aggressive manner (they''re just so immobile and once ure resources are on different locations..well) so musks tend to become kind of useless in age 3. I simply prefer lb-dragoon.

So, is making pikes more advisable? I just thought that maybe getting some pikes vs. raids, sending 700w, then 700g to age could be a good idea?
(Haven''t really tried it so far.)

I guess my main problem about that is that as a brit you just age up so slow. But on the other hand not aging up and fighting age2 vs. age 3 doesn''t feel right, as well. Oh, and ofc if you want to go lb-dragoon then you will really be in a bad situation if the opponent comes right after you''re age-up with a cannon army because you won''t have many dragoons to kill the cannons.

Thanks for your answers.

just age at 4:10, boom until 700w then drop 2 rax and make 10 pikes (unless you scout forward raxes). From there you can go lbow pike huss in age 2 or follow them up. I would recommend never making goons as brits since lbows can''t hit and run so you need something to body-block rather than goons which are a micro unit. If you are fighting age 2 vs age 3 you can just rely on outmassing by a lot to deal with cannons. If you follow them up, use your own 2 cannon shipment to kill their 2 cannon shipment. If they add more cannons build an artillery foundry and make a couple of culverins.

arkz · Post by **arkz** » 23 Oct 2015, 11:39

Well, the moment you''re opponent has enough dragoons to at least 2 shot a vill, coming in and getting kills isn''t really that difficult, is it? Also, even if the outpost would be enough to prevent any raiding, it still is an investment of 250w, meaning it''s somehow like ~3 units less in you''re main army. Posting muks near my vills basically is the same as an outpost, I guess it''s a matter of preference, however, the consequences of musks/outpost are nearly the same.

And pike/lb boom - that''s part of my question, isn''t it? Does that choice make sense? Playing with in the longrun maybe pike-lb-hussar against an age 3 france? I don''t have that much playing experience to be sure about it but I don''t really feel good playing age 2 vs age 3. And if you can''t end the game fast with an age2 strategy it basically means that all the time you are making weaker and therefore less cost-effective units. Additionally you will have worse shipments. So, actually I would even question the "booming"-part about it. Doesn''t look to me as if you''re economy would be that much stronger.

Edit:

britishmusketeer wrote:just age at 4:10, boom until 700w then drop 2 rax and make 10 pikes (unless you scout forward&'nbsp'raxes). From there you can go lbow pike huss in age 2 or follow them up. I would recommend never making goons as brits since lbows can''t hit and run so you need something to body-block rather than goons which are a micro unit. If you are fighting age 2 vs age 3 you can just rely on outmassing by a lot to deal with cannons. If you follow them up, use your own 2 cannon shipment to kill their 2 cannon shipment. If they&'nbsp'add more cannons&'nbsp'build an artillery foundry and&'nbsp'make a couple of culverins.

Hm, thanks for your reply.

But then the crucial question would remain wether or not is is advisable to age-up. Because that''s kind of the reason why I posted here. I feel that as brits my normal approach of somehow adpating while playing doesn''t work vs french semi-ff. If you decide too late to age-up you will ave 2200resources spent without getting anything out of it. Therefore I decided to actually get advise in this specific matter.

fei123456 · Post by **fei123456** » 23 Oct 2015, 11:40

semiff too.

britishmusketeer · Post by **britishmusketeer** » 23 Oct 2015, 11:47

arkz wrote:Well, the moment you''re opponent has enough dragoons to at least 2 shot a vill, coming in and getting kills isn''t really that difficult, is it? Also, even if the outpost would be enough to prevent any raiding, it still is an investment of 250w, meaning it''s somehow like ~3 units less in you''re main army. Posting muks near my vills basically is the same as an outpost, I guess it''s matter of preference, however, consequences of that are naerly the same.

And pike/lb boom - that''s part of my question, isn''t it? Does that choice make sense? Playing with in the longrun maybe pike-lb-hussar against an age 3 france? I don''t have that much playing experience to be sure about it but I don''t really feel good playing age 2 vs age 3. And if you can''t end the game fast with an age2 strategy it basically means that all the time you are making weaker and therefore less cost-effective units. Additionally you will have worse shipments. So, actually I would even question the "booming"-part about it. Doesn''t look to me as if you''re economy would be that much stronger.

Use manors for line of sight and push on the side of your vills so that you don''t get run around by goons. The outpost isn''t an investment of 250w, it is an investment of around 200f since you are aging with tower + 200g compared to 500f. Playing age 2 vs age 3 is fine since you will outmass them by so much and lbows stand extremely well against skirmishers, although you can age if you like. This rec is probably pretty helpful: http://eso-community.net/thread/808/h2o-samwise12

britishmusketeer · Post by **britishmusketeer** » 23 Oct 2015, 11:51

arkz wrote:
Edit:

britishmusketeer wrote:just age at 4:10, boom until 700w then drop 2 rax and make 10 pikes (unless you scout forward&'nbsp'raxes). From there you can go lbow pike huss in age 2 or follow them up. I would recommend never making goons as brits since lbows cant hit and run so you need something to body-block rather than goons which are a micro unit. If you are fighting age 2 vs age 3 you can just rely on outmassing by a lot to deal with cannons. If you follow them up, use your own 2 cannon shipment to kill their 2 cannon shipment. If they&'nbsp'add more cannons&'nbsp'build an artillery foundry and&'nbsp'make a couple of culverins.

Hm, thanks for your reply.

But then the crucial question would remain wether or not is is advisable to age-up. Because thats kind of the reason why I posted here. I feel that as brits my normal approach of somehow adpating while playing doesnt work vs french semi-ff. If you decide too late to age-up you will ave 2200resources spent without getting anything out of it. Therefore I decided to actually get advise in this specific matter.

If you are going to age it needs to be a pre-emptive decision by shipping 700g as your 2nd/3rd shipment in age 2

arriah · Post by **arriah** » 23 Oct 2015, 11:57

arkz wrote:And pike/lb boom - that''s part of my question, isn''t it? Does that choice make sense? Playing with in the longrun maybe pike-lb-hussar against an age 3 france? I don''t have that much playing experience to be sure about it but I don''t really feel good playing age 2 vs age 3. And if you can''t end the game fast with an age2 strategy it basically means that all the time you are making weaker and therefore less cost-effective units. Additionally you will have worse shipments. So, actually I would even question the "booming"-part about it. Doesn''t look to me as if you''re economy would be that much stronger

I asked those things mainly to clear up what all you have tried. I said lb pike boom because you can make tons of settlers super fast while still massing army because you don''t have to bother with gold, but it''s flexible enough that you can ship gold or something and age if you needed to? Sorry if my answer was not helpful.

arkz · Post by **arkz** » 23 Oct 2015, 11:59

britishmusketeer wrote:
arkz wrote:Well, the moment youre opponent has enough dragoons to at least 2 shot a vill, coming in and getting kills isnt really that difficult, is it? Also, even if the outpost would be enough to prevent any raiding, it still is an investment of 250w, meaning its somehow like ~3 units less in youre main army. Posting muks near my vills basically is the same as an outpost, I guess its matter of preference, however, consequences of that are naerly the same.

And pike/lb boom - thats part of my question, isnt it? Does that choice make sense? Playing with in the longrun maybe pike-lb-hussar against an age 3 france? I dont have that much playing experience to be sure about it but I dont really feel good playing age 2 vs age 3. And if you cant end the game fast with an age2 strategy it basically means that all the time you are making weaker and therefore less cost-effective units. Additionally you will have worse shipments. So, actually I would even question the "booming"-part about it. Doesnt look to me as if youre economy would be that much stronger.
Use manors for line of sight and push on the side of your vills so that you dont get run around by goons. The outpost isnt an investment of 250w, it is an investment of around 200f since you are aging with tower + 200g compared to 500f. Playing age 2 vs age 3 is fine since you will outmass them by so much and lbows stand extremely well against skirmishers, although you can age if you like. This rec is probably pretty helpful: http://eso-community.net/thread/808/h2o-samwise12

Can I watch the recording having only vanilla?

About the outpost ->' Besides not being completely convinced of outpost-ageup being better than food-ageup in this particular match-up: So you place youre outpost on a hunt that you will not use despite the raiding pressure of the semi-ff? Because if you actually gather from the hunt you placed youre tower on (or if you place it near youre tc) it is very unlikely that youre age up-tower will still be in the right spot to protect youre vills against goon-raids by an age3-french?

britishmusketeer · Post by **britishmusketeer** » 23 Oct 2015, 12:05

arkz wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:Use manors for line of sight and push on the side of your vills so that you dont get run around by goons. The outpost isnt an investment of 250w, it is an investment of around 200f since you are aging with tower + 200g compared to 500f. Playing age 2 vs age 3 is fine since you will outmass them by so much and lbows stand extremely well against skirmishers, although you can age if you like. This rec is probably pretty helpful: http://eso-community.net/thread/808/h2o-samwise12
Can I watch the recording having only vanilla?

About the outpost ->' Besides not being completely convinced of outpost-ageup being better than food-ageup in this particular match-up: So you place youre outpost on a hunt that you will not use despite the raiding pressure of the semi-ff? Because if you actually gather from the hunt you placed youre tower on (or if you place it near youre tc) it is very unlikely that youre age up-tower will still be in the right spot to protect youre vills against goon-raids by an age3-french?

You need tad to watch the recording sadly. You put the tower on your 2nd hunt that you have herded to your tc. You dont use towers in age 3. You can age with 500f if you want, but IMO it is worth saving a minimal amount of res (food gathers ~ double the speed of wood/coin with steel traps) to be safe against a potential xbow/musk rush.

arkz · Post by **arkz** » 23 Oct 2015, 13:01

Hm, is it like common knowledge around here to not make dragoons with brits?^^ Because even though you're argument does make sense I still think that the mobility of dragoons as anti-cav shouldn't be underestimated if you compare them to pikes or even musks.

britishmusketeer · Post by **britishmusketeer** » 23 Oct 2015, 13:19

arkz wrote:Hm, is it like common knowledge around here to not make dragoons with brits?^^ Because even though you''re argument does make sense I still think that the mobility of dragoons as anti-cav shouldn''t be underestimated if you compare them to pikes or even musks.

I think most pr30+ don''t make goons with brits. Its true that mobility is very important, but if you are going lbow goon, french will just add lots of cuirs which will melt lbows if there is nothing to block them. If you just camp on your resources and then timing push, you shouldn''t get run around.

mongobillione · Post by **mongobillione** » 23 Oct 2015, 13:52

paul wrote:semiff too.

first bad post i did ever heard from u if ur serious

mongobillione · Post by **mongobillione** » 23 Oct 2015, 13:52

paul wrote:semiff too.

first bad post i did ever heard from u if ur serious

britishmusketeer · Post by **britishmusketeer** » 23 Oct 2015, 14:29

mnogobillione wrote:
paul wrote:semiff too.
first bad post i did ever heard from u if ur serious

brit semi-ff is fine

lukas2223 · Post by **lukas2223** » 23 Oct 2015, 14:40

Ok so this is what u actually do. U go for a typical boomy build 3v 700w rax to kill 5 cav and take map with manors (but stay age 2 and mass) and just keep him in his base so he can't gather. If u feel u have enough army withount overcoming before he ages to 3 sure take down the tc. In this ud like to have 2 rax 1 stbl and maybe some nats (depends map) supplementing you.

tedere12 · Post by **tedere12** » 23 Oct 2015, 18:23

britishmusketeer wrote:
arkz wrote:Hm, is it like common knowledge around here to not make dragoons with brits?^^ Because even though youre argument does make sense I still think that the mobility of dragoons as anti-cav shouldnt be underestimated if you compare them to pikes or even musks.
I think most pr30+ dont make goons with brits. Its true that mobility is very important, but if you are going lbow goon, french will just add lots of cuirs which will melt lbows if there is nothing to block them. If you just camp on your resources and then timing push, you shouldnt get run around.

According to _H2O longbows are such a good anticav that you dont need to add goons. Hussars would block cuirs fine while goons shoot from behind

forgrin · Post by **forgrin** » 23 Oct 2015, 19:00

tedere12 wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:I think most pr30+ dont make goons with brits. Its true that mobility is very important, but if you are going lbow goon, french will just add lots of cuirs which will melt lbows if there is nothing to block them. If you just camp on your resources and then timing push, you shouldnt get run around.?
According to _H2O longbows are such a good anticav that you dont need to add goons. Hussars would block cuirs fine while goons shoot from behind

Pretty sure huss beat cuirs cost-effectively, especially if theyre vet huss. If you fail to micro down his goons itll be messy but otherwise its fine.

britishmusketeer · Post by **britishmusketeer** » 23 Oct 2015, 19:10

forgrin wrote:
tedere12 wrote:According to _H2O longbows are such a good anticav that you dont need to add goons. Hussars would block cuirs fine while goons shoot from behind
Pretty sure huss beat cuirs cost-effectively, especially if theyre vet huss. If you fail to micro down his goons itll be messy but otherwise its fine.

huss definitely dont beat cuirs cost effectively

forgrin · Post by **forgrin** » 23 Oct 2015, 19:18

britishmusketeer wrote:
forgrin wrote:Pretty sure huss beat cuirs cost-effectively, especially if theyre vet huss. If you fail to micro down his goons itll be messy but otherwise its fine.
huss definitely dont beat cuirs cost effectively

3 huss: 960hp 90dmg. 2 cuirs: 1000hp 60dmg (plus a little area but due to cav spacing this is minimal). Considering thats just age 2 huss, not even vet, huss definitely draw even/win.

arkz · Post by **arkz** » 23 Oct 2015, 19:30

tedere12 wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:I think most pr30+ dont make goons with brits. Its true that mobility is very important, but if you are going lbow goon, french will just add lots of cuirs which will melt lbows if there is nothing to block them. If you just camp on your resources and then timing push, you shouldnt get run around.
According to _H2O longbows are such a good anticav that you dont need to add goons. Hussars would block cuirs fine while goons shoot from behind

Meaning what exactly compositionwise? You quote someone else saying one wouldnt need goons before suggesting that hussars can block while goons are shooting? Or did you mean "while longbows shot from behind" insinuating that longbow-hussar should work fine?

Anyway, from what I gather even in age 3 longbow-pike is considered to be better than longbow-dragoon?

forgrin · Post by **forgrin** » 23 Oct 2015, 19:37

arkz wrote:
tedere12 wrote:According to _H2O longbows are such a good anticav that you dont need to add goons. Hussars would block cuirs fine while goons shoot from behind
Meaning what exactly compositionwise? You quote someone else saying one wouldnt need goons before suggesting that hussars can block while goons are shooting? Or did you mean "while longbows shot from behind" insinuating that longbow-hussar should work fine?

Anyway, from what I gather even in age 3 longbow-pike is considered to be better than longbow-dragoon?

Yeah for Brits huss-lbow-pike (probably change pike to musk if youre not facing cuirs) is good. You dont need goons because lbow dps is so ridiculous, you really just need something to keep their cav occupied/snared and youll win.

tedere12 · Post by **tedere12** » 23 Oct 2015, 19:40

Most MU's you dont even need to go age 3 as british so musketeer longbow hussar seems ok.
Dragoon Longbow Hussar is a good composition ofcourse but as mentioned you can not hit and run with longbows, you need them not to move to deal a lot of damage so musketeers are somewhat more optimal when you have to do with large a cav mass (at least thats what I believe). And lol lb pike is worse than lb goon ofc

britishmusketeer · Post by **britishmusketeer** » 23 Oct 2015, 19:51

forgrin wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:huss definitely dont beat cuirs cost effectively
3 huss: 960hp 90dmg. 2 cuirs: 1000hp 60dmg (plus a little area but due to cav spacing this is minimal). Considering thats just age 2 huss, not even vet, huss definitely draw even/win.

Nope. Cuirs win and its not even close

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