Japan Semi FF with ESOC Patch

[Hagi]

With the fix applied with the fan patch :
- 600xp shogunate at Industrial (bug that gave 1600xp before)
- Age3 Close combat card (+ x1 hand damage vs light infantry)

I can see an age3 shogunate becomes more popular (300xp + Daimyo + boost units att.).
[span]Also, it might even encourage to follow quickly in Industrial since you will receive 10 yumi after you age (with golden pavilion) if you are short on military units, in case your opponent want to punish you.
For example a push after fortress with ashi + daimyo and couple of flam arrow and age4 almost for free behind it.
Age4 is still interesting (even though you won't have 2 shipments anymore) because of Tempo reforms and exhaled upgrades.
At least, in mirror that might be interesting.

Your thoughts ?
[/span]

[momuuu]

In saturday smackdown 1.5 weeks ago masterdutch did an age3 semi with shogunate and it looked pretty effective. Could just be straight up better than golden pavillion to be honest.

[Mr_Bramboy]

I've been doing the 600w 4v 600c into shogunate build ever since masterdutch rekt me with it. Pretty great build, I must say.

[Hagi]

Yes, masterdutch vs bramboy gave us a nice example.
When before you could argue that shogunate gives you more at age4, now it won't be the case so shogunate will be better in age3, we can assume...
Also, with RE patch, age3 shogunate is an all in. If your opponent follow you and hold with pavilion, it's gg with age4 shogunate + 2 shipments.

[Mr_Bramboy]

Yes, masterdutch vs bramboy gave us a nice example.
When before you could argue that shogunate gives you more at age4, now it won''t be the case so shogunate will be better in age3, we can assume...
Also, with RE patch, age3 shogunate is an all in. If your opponent follow you and hold with pavilion, it''s gg with age4 shogunate + 2 shipments.

In a mirror this build is very hard to impossible to hold because you have 4 flaming arrows in his base by the time he gets 2.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Hum, that's quite interesting yeah.

[Hagi]

How should be the BO?
Kami, 600w, 4 vill, 600c, (Age3) 2 flam, 2 flam, 2 orchards ?
Is it possible to squeeze 8 ashi card before 2 orchards if you put your shrines mostly on food?

[yemshi]

If you start with two orchards, it should be.

[[Armag] diarouga]

How should be the BO?
Kami, 600w, 4 vill, 600c, (Age3) 2 flam, 2 flam, 2 orchards ?
Is it possible to squeeze 8 ashi card before 2 orchards if you put your shrines mostly on food?

600/4/4/2flam/2flam/orchard yeah, but you can''t always age3 safely, unless you have more units.

[Goodspeed]

Before the Japanese semi-FF became meta in mirrors (used to be colonial play) people went 600w 4v 600g or even 600w 600g 600g because otherwise a colonial timing can punish the age up.
But slowly but surely, which is how it always goes, the build got adopted and people found that they could get ahead by sending more vill shipments than the other guy.
So then it was 600 4 4 into age up (into potential IV age up).

There had to be a way to punish that so I started trying timings with 600w 600g 600g. I noticed flaming arrows are too damn slow to have any hope of punishing the slower age up, meaning the daimyo that you get from the shogunate acting as a shipment arrival point is key.

If it becomes meta then the following will probably happen:
- People will start sending more vill shipments because that is the way to get ahead in otherwise mirrored builds.
- As 600w 4v 4v becomes more popular, people will see the timing is no longer scary so they will age up with the pavilion, which gives better buffs.
- This build will disappear.

But it's a nice anti-meta play ')