Sioux discussion

[cowhax]

Since I am nub to competitive AoE3 I'm just going to talk about what I like to do, think is good strategy as a Sioux player. I'm mostly going to summarize different techniques, age up choices, and what's good or bad about Sioux. Anybody more knowledgeable feel free to correct, add to, or challenge my statements.

So people say you play Sioux because of bow riders. This is only true if your game plan is all about econ harassment and anti cav. I don't think bow riders are the most practical choice for Sioux. They're very expensive at 100 food and 75 gold. That seems like too much of an investment in early (Age 2) game for me to really recommend people use bow riders as their primary military unit. If you mass bow riders, you're looking to win an Age 2-based game where you rush the other player, and prevent them from gathering enough resources to ever mass an army.

Yes bow riders are probably the most practical cavalry choice because mobility is pretty important, and all other non-ranged cav lose hard to musketeer types. I just don't think Sioux should be viewed as an all-or-nothing civ when it comes to military choice and build orders.

Reasons I like Sioux:
+Hunt shipments
+Best hunt upgrades
+Outlaw shipments
+Native tribe support shipments

One unit that is underrated for native civs in general are the fire pit Alarm Dance bowmen. For such an early and free unit you can make, I've never understood why people using Sioux never seem to spawn them to help get better treasures or even with some very fast eco harassment. Sioux doesn't have to worry about population cap so putting the few seconds into making them with vills is worth it to me to have that early aggression available.

So a "standard" build order for me could go something like send 3 vills for your 1st shipment, get XP treasures if you can, then save for Age 2 700 wood, or do the Age 1 wood upgrade shipment (Don't make a market before Age 2 if you would have to chop wood). Don't bother with the firepit until you're aging. A few reasonable alternatives to Age 2 700 wood are the farm travois, bison shipments, 4 vills, hunt improvement card(s). I usually do 700 wood, then farm travois or vice versa depending on my shipments and hunts available. Farm travois is awesome because it gives you XP back upon construction (you only need 1) and it acts as a secondary market for all the hunt improvements it gives you. I like to get at least the first 2 hunt improvements from the farm since they're the cheapest (timing varies) and really make your food gathering so strong that either you don't need as many vills on food, or you can FF without just sending 700 food or something that could compromise your military.

I like either 10 pistoleros or 7 comancheros as my first military shipment. It's more of a defensive choice, but compared to all your other age 2 choices, they're definitely the strongest. If you send pistoleros, then you'll need to make clubmen or bow riders. If you send comancheros, then you'll need to make cetan bows. The match up should determine what you send first (if anything). If you're being attacked while focusing on your eco, I recommend having at least pistoleros on hand to use in the style of minutemen that are more permanently in play. But since you're Sioux, and supposing your explorer hasn't died, you should be able to scout what the other player is bringing and when, fairly easily.

I don't care to discuss "late game Sioux" because I'm sure to some people, the concept doesn't exist. Bow Riders are a good investment at that point once your economy is up and stabilized. And their tribal support shipments are good only if you have the gold to spare, otherwise you might end up gold-starved. Sioux's biggest weakness is not having any real well-rounded units that can deal with infantry and cav effectively. But at least any of their cav can melt artillery.

Reasons I don't like Sioux:
-Tipis SUCK
-Most big buttons are useless (except maybe market, dogmen, and farm big buttons)
-Again, no real well-rounded unit pick. Calls for attentive military composition and good scouting.
-Tashunke

I suppose the biggest debate against deviating from the bow-rider build is that if you don't find some way to harass the other player's economy, at least increasing their idle time, then you're going to be behind because the other player's civ will probably have stronger units that beat yours 1:1. Another debate is that maybe some tactics I mentioned aren't cost effective or able to produce in a timely manner, but this summary of the Sioux wasn't really about saying what the best things are to do with the civ. I just wanted to mention alternatives that make the civ a bit more enjoyable and surprisingly just as good.

[_H2O]

Heres my suiox build

3 vil, 4 cav, 700 gold

while aging chop enough wood to have a market with hunting dogs and the one mining upgrade.

Age with 400 wood

Drop tp and stable with 400 wood.

Make only bow riders and try to win by beating every unit they make with them.

If the game goes to 15-18 minutes send dog big button.





The main thing is that bow riders, axe riders, and dog soldiers are the only viable units that suiox has. Wakina I am on the fence on, I know they are not good but maybe mixing like 15-20 is okay.

The reason warrior dance is not used is because 1 - its not free your villagers have to dance to produce them. 2 - they are not good. They have a long setup animation, decay in hp over time and since they only spawn one at a time they dont offer the same surprise value that normal minutes do.

The farm travois card is not a solid choice. It is sending 400 wood plus the villager seconds to make the farm. You are better sending 600 wood or even 500 wood if such a card existed.


I recently tried to train pistoleros and I was not very happy with their performance. They are valued at 80 gold each so 800 gold for 10. But you have to pay 500 gold I believe to send them. I am guessing because theoretically the high population cost of the unit is not a problem for suiox. 7 Comanchero i would avoid for sure.

A final note. Since you are thinking very logically about the game and trying to make correct units and counters etc. you would be best off to play any other civ than suiox. Their play style is counter intuitive because of how bad the stats are on many of their units.


The biggest argument against not making bow riders is that all their units suck except bow riders, which happen to be good enough to beat their counters.

[cowhax]

I understand that about bow riders, I just don't like using them to be an all-purpose military unit. They're better off for hit and run tactics. Maybe it's something about them using a bow that makes them seem so impractical. At least when it comes to microing.

Pistolero are best when you have other units to support so they can't be singled out so easily. And Comancheros I'd call out to be dedicated anti-cav. I've always been more concerned with balanced army composition than only making the best units for any civ. You really shouldn't be able to win with nothing but bow riders if the other player is focusing on making a 100% anti-cav army.

I think my style when it comes to Sioux could be defined as a economic/glass cannon build. You're right about the Alarm dance units not being free. But being able to produce 6 of them in a short amount of time for the sake of gathering treasure and minor harassment makes them useful even at 0 HP. Plus the fact that the other player doesn't gain XP from killing them.

I don't quite understand what you said about the farm travois. You get 2 free farms at zero cost except the shipment, that build themselves, give you XP, and access to boost your food gathering rate. So that would make it an 800 wood shipment, plus having farms ready on hand in case you need to go into late game and somehow run out of hunt.

H2O, You manage to get 3 shipments before Age 2? I only like going for TP if I have a surplus of wood. Lastly, I do play other civs, but I get most enjoyment out of the game by doing unorthodox builds like shipping Spahi for Ottoman or having a livestock pen-based build for Portuguese, etc.

[[Armag] diarouga]

H2o, how do you play sioux mirror?
I guess 4 Ars isn t good vs mass brs

[divine_moon]

sioux infantry isn't all bad as u guys make it sound ..... ::)
or is it my low level that has me thinking this way ? (rofl)

[Garja]

wakinas are fine all other inf sux

[_H2O]

i dont play suiox

[Goodspeed]

What's a Sioux?

[Good ol Ivan]

Wakinas are actually pretty good imho.
Cost-effectively I'd say they are even better than skirms.

Alarm dance is an interesting choice, but I don't see it viable. You spend too many villager seconds training them and they aren't all that powerful. Only European minutemen are somewhat viable - specially if you start with 100 coin and an accessible 50 coin treasure or something along the lines - but even so that doesn't say much. IMHO minutem are only viable if your opponent is building a FB and won't be anticipating your minutem.

As for BRs... Well, they are good for microing and as a general purpose unit. They are most certainly the most practical choice for sioux.
I might consider the 2 farms though.

[mistamadness]

If you have to send farms you've lost cause you don't have hunt control. Farms are way slower than hunts and it wastes a shipment.

[cowhax]

Huh. I'd expect 2 admins to stay on topic here. ') Not that there was a lot more to discuss, or that there was already an engaging discussion.

I don't think people understand for the most part why I send 2 farms. I DON'T gather from them. It's all about the build XP and the hunt improvements they give. That's the diffeence between Native civs and Euro/Asian civs. Euro/Asian farm upgrades don't ALSO improve hunts, while for Native civs, they do. And I think there are 3 levels of research before even Age 3. Shipping farms is the only reasonable way to get more hunt upgrades for Sioux that aren't just a hunt improvement card, or the bison age-up that gives a hunt bonus also.

[Good ol Ivan]

Huh. Id expect 2 admins to stay on topic here. ') Not that there was a lot more to discuss, or that there was already an engaging discussion.

I dont think people understand for the most part why I send 2 farms. I DONT gather from them. Its all about the build XP and the hunt improvements they give. Thats the diffeence between Native civs and Euro/Asian civs. Euro/Asian farm upgrades dont ALSO improve hunts, while for Native civs, they do. And I think there are 3 levels of research before even Age 3. Shipping farms is the only reasonable way to get more hunt upgrades for Sioux that arent just a hunt improvement card, or the bison age-up that gives a hunt bonus also.

Hunting upgrades from Sioux farms?
What?

If you have to send farms youve lost cause you dont have hunt control. Farms are way slower than hunts and it wastes a shipment.

I was thinking in a low-res map

[cowhax]

Are you serious? You didn't know natives get hunt improvements through their farms?

[Good ol Ivan]

Do they?

[_H2O]

yeah and all their plantation upgrades improve mining too.

[Good ol Ivan]

Like, woah.
I have been playing this game for 10 years and I never knew that.

[Garja]

As sioux you want bisons cards and farm up > farm travois

[deleted_user0]

Wakinas still not great. Only 18 range... Which negates their high dmg low hp balancing.

Cetas are shit and clubs mediocre. Axes decent but not special, good enough for the job though. Rifle riders are bice but only as a combo buster, nice vs spain hehe, rape cannons rods pike and lancer. A few axe to kill the skirs and gg.

Itsux that their inf is so bad because they could make some nice combos and strats.

Only reason to consider outlaws is because really cetans are so bad lol. In age3 i like the 1000c for upgrade + unit cards, nice for the wakinas and axes.

[Garja]

Actually axe riders are the best 2pop cav in the game or very close to it.

[cowhax]

you can't age up with Sioux with a farm option. Only Aztec has that. You can age up with bison + hunt improvement which is what I usually do along with sending farms.

[deleted_user0]

Actually axe riders are the best 2pop cav in the game or very close to it.

Maybe. I guess theyre good allround but id prefer more specialiSed cav such as lancer or naginata. Also cossacks are probably the best allround cav. Defo after boyars.

[Garja]

ye coss are insane.
axe have only 20% rr tho
nagis are pretty damn good all around AND anti inf

[Goodspeed]

Yeah AR are probably the best colonial cav in the game before cards. 160-40 is a bargain for what you get. Less RR is not a very big deal in colonial because most anticav will be melee.

[deleted_user0]

Ye their cost is great, and sioux has good cards for them as well. Wvlhich sioux players dont use enough...

[_venox_]

Do you think 4 AR > 5 coss card?