beating otto with french in 1v1, vanilla version?

[alexandre7]

Hey all,

I am a hardcore french player and don't enjoy playing other civs much. But I find it too hard to play against ottoman and to some extent against russians in 1v1. I have many tips from various players like going xbow+(pike or musk against abus) but I find it hard to achieve.

I know otto are OP and hence even banned from spring tournament but I should still be able to beat somewhat lower ranked player, no? Does anyone have good recordings of some examples so I can focus on build order, deck, micro etc?

[alexandre7]

The stuff I have already observed from some recordings (whether or not french won) is:
1. Check if otto has mamelukes in deck, then if he goes age 3 I need to have some dragoons ready. nothing else will beat them.
2. Need to scout and see if he making barracks or artillery foundry or if I see coin crates in tc which suggests ff. I am not sure i should also go to age 3 or rush him if i see coin crates .
3. need to build all my buildings within tc fire range, barracks behind the tc, kinda surrounded by market and houses.

[alexandre7]

Ok I found one interesting recording of Veni on youtube. He just used minuteman to destroy fb before it could even be completed. I guess I need to practice scouting and try this.

[Nymphomaniac]

Hey, this match on Veni's channel b/w Masterchief (otto) and GamePower/Erik (French) is much better imo :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX6l_ebJlBk

[alexandre7]

Hey, this match on Veni''s channel b/w Masterchief (otto) and GamePower/Erik (French) is much better imo :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX6l_ebJlBk

That was a great match indeed. Erik''s micro was awesome.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I know that semi 5huss works well even vs rush.

[Mr_Bramboy]

I personally go for a 5 huss semi ff and then go full goon from 2 stables using 1k coin as the first fortress shipment. This is harder to pull off if your opponent goes jan abus, but with proper micro + vills and mm pop you should be able to survive his initial push. You can also try to wall a bit to buy time to mass goons.

Here is a game which SoldieR played yesterday, french vs otto on Ozarks vs qinggod. He plays it very well and does win, so this should help you.

http://www.twitch.tv/giveuanxiety/b/645147753 Starts at: 02:35:18

[alexandre7]

Thanks for the link Mr_Bramboy. Just one question. I believe the entire goons massing was to counter mamelukes. If an otto player is just massing jans or jans+abus, should I still just mass goons?
I mean soldier massed goons anticipating mamelukes but what if otto guy had used resources to mass much more jans instead of buying mercenary, wud goons still win cuz his skirms wud be outnumbered by jans + few abus?

[Mr_Bramboy]

Thanks for the link Mr_Bramboy. Just one question. I believe the entire goons massing was to counter mamelukes. If an otto player is just massing jans or jans+abus, should I still just mass goons?
I mean soldier massed goons anticipating mamelukes but what if otto guy had used resources to mass much more jans instead of buying mercenary, wud goons still win cuz his skirms wud be outnumbered by jans + few abus?

The thing is that otto don''t have a reliable counter to ranged cavarly (abus do x0.75) so you should mass a lot of dragoons. Mixing a few (~20) skirms is ok if he''s still in colonial, but if he is going for the standard vet jan + cannon + mams build then I recommend massing pure goons. Cannons also help out if he''s still in colonial. If he went fortress then I usually ship my cannons when his mams are dead, or I don''t ship them at all.

So to answer your question: If he is massing jans or jan/abus in colonial, mix a few skirms. If he is massing jans or jan/abus in fortress, don''t mix a few skirms until his mams are dead.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Thanks for the link Mr_Bramboy. Just one question. I believe the entire goons massing was to counter mamelukes. If an otto player is just massing jans or jans+abus, should I still just mass goons?
I mean soldier massed goons anticipating mamelukes but what if otto guy had used resources to mass much more jans instead of buying mercenary, wud goons still win cuz his skirms wud be outnumbered by jans + few abus?

The thing is that otto dont have a reliable counter to ranged cavarly (abus do x0.75) so you should mass a lot of dragoons. Mixing a few (~20) skirms is ok if hes still in colonial, but if he is going for the standard vet jan + cannon + mams build then I recommend massing pure goons. Cannons also help out if hes still in colonial. If he went fortress then I usually ship my cannons when his mams are dead, or I dont ship them at all.

So to answer your question: If he is massing jans or jan/abus in colonial, mix a few skirms. If he is massing jans or jan/abus in fortress, dont mix a few skirms until his mams are dead.

Pure goon is goon 5/5+ 8skirm shipment so if he doesnt send mams, just hit and run.

[SoldieR]

I was going to suggest my game aswell. Notice a few things tho, I luckily sniped his cannons. But also I miss clicked and miss microd a few times, you just have to be very careful with your skirms, keep them at distance, then try to take out mama quickly. It is a difficult micro situation, and if you fight without hit and run you lose easily.

Goons are good vs Otto cause their large HP and ranged armor, Jan's at range take a while to kill them.

Maybe sending 2 falc first is better because Otto tend to have about 20 jans and two falc before sending 1k coin and mams. Walls definitely help keep his units at bay, and keep ur falcs safe.

Also if you scout his tower at home, maybe try tax first and some pike to kill his to to delay him. Haven't tried that in recent memory but Otto need a lot of shipments to get mams out

[deleted_user0]

Otto ff typically gets mams at 12 min more or less. But it can be as fast as 9. Usually its the 4th shipment, but sometimes ppl skip 1 card, usually 8 jans or 2 cans to get faster mams.

Its a pretty irresistable timing. The mistake most ppl make as otto is to push too early meaning that they dont have enough jans or lost their falcs at the 12 min timing.

[WickedCossack]

Its a pretty irresistable timing. The mistake most ppl make as otto is to push too early meaning that they dont have enough jans or lost their falcs at the 12 min timing.

Most people do two pushes, first with the falcs which they then lose. Then they come back with the mams for a 2nd attempt. I hope no one cottons on to the fact that pushing with falcs AND mams at the same time is 10x as scary.

[Garja]

yes but you're the one poking otto if they dont push with cannons.

[deleted_user0]

Otto is perfectly capable of applying pressure while not forcing a direct engagement. Just keep the falcs safe and u can easily keep them alive until the mams come. Its easy to keep goons at bay specially if u age 4 abus and send 5 abus instead of 8 jan. Vs fre i think this is fine, vs japan also, tho i usually prefer to go 5 jans just because speed is key there. The 5 jans help defend vs any semi (so u dont lose tp) or can kill 1 or 2 shrines in that minute that they are out faster.

[alexandre7]

Recently I got a chance to play 1v1 against otto. He was Captain rank, about 5 levels above me. The game went as follows:
1. I scouted his villies he had sent for fb, to know what he is making
2. I tried copying Veni's style by taking out my minute man and destroying his fb arsenal before he could complete it. Although my timing was late so he finished making barracks still.
3. He kept making jans and I kept making musks + 8 cross bowman card
4. I was able to contain his initial 3 rushes, but I lost 5-6 villies in process as I used them to attack as well.
5. The gap between our score gradually kept increasing in his favor (like 170 to 193)
6. I used 3 hussar card to take out 2 villies and same time engage his jans with my musks.
7. The game time was about 19min when he just reached age 3 and I had executes point 6 above. I had outnumbered his jans somewhat, not sure who would have won the fight.
8. His internet connection was lost

Later on he told me I could age up early as an improvement to my game. I find myself to be in a quandary over when is the right time to age up. I kept making musks anticipating another push and he did push 3 times. But after that, there was a gap and although I kept making more musks, he was aging. Thats when i decided to try raid hm and engage him with musks. Is there something better I should have done?

[CuCkO0]

yes

[alexandre7]

yes

ok ...

[[Armag] diarouga]

Recently I got a chance to play 1v1 against otto. He was Captain rank, about 5 levels above me. The game went as follows:
1. I scouted his villies he had sent for fb, to know what he is making
2. I tried copying Veni''s style by taking out my minute man and destroying his fb arsenal before he could complete it. Although my timing was late so he finished making barracks still.
3. He kept making jans and I kept making musks + 8 cross bowman card
4. I was able to contain his initial 3 rushes, but I lost 5-6 villies in process as I used them to attack as well.
5. The gap between our score gradually kept increasing in his favor (like 170 to 193)
6. I used 3 hussar card to take out 2 villies and same time engage his jans with my musks.
7. The game time was about 19min when he just reached age 3 and I had executes point 6 above. I had outnumbered his jans somewhat, not sure who would have won the fight.
8. His internet connection was lost

Later on he told me I could age up early as an improvement to my game. I find myself to be in a quandary over when is the right time to age up. I kept making musks anticipating another push and he did push 3 times. But after that, there was a gap and although I kept making more musks, he was aging. Thats when i decided to try raid hm and engage him with musks. Is there something better I should have done?

Don t loose 6vills?
Lol, even 1 or 2 vills is too much as France :p
And imo, you have to age, you can t win in late age 2.

[iNcog]

so something like a musk semi-ff is what you're advising, diarouga?

[Nymphomaniac]

Scouting what otto player is upto is really important for any civ playing against them. If he goes for 2nd age jan-abus, then ofc u have to stay age 2 and hold it with whatever u can. If otherwise he goes ff, then try following him with semi or maybe even naked ff, and try dealing with it ')

[[Armag] diarouga]

so something like a musk semi-ff is what you''re advising, diarouga?

Yes, like 20musk/8bow semi or 15musk semi vs a jan rush, otherwise 5cav semi vs jan/abus or semi ff.

[Garja]

Vanilla version:
go for a straight FF with tower and 200g. Build a TP in transition to colo. Send 700g 700w or 700g 4v.
Age up with 6 skirm (or 4 huss if he makes some jan/huss strat).
Spam goons and send skirm cards. Send 2 cannons when you have enough stuff to protect them and you're ready to push out.
Abuse the skirm range and his lack of counter to goons.

Play TAD.

[CuCkO0]

Play TAD.

/thread

[_H2O]

I havnt read the thread. But on vanilla otto is nearly unbeatable. Especially the lower your rating, the more powerful otto becomes. Now if you do beat someone your rating and they are playing otto, you can bet they would be about 5-10 pr lower just by changing to another civ.

That guy is not worth talking to, he is not a better player than you if the game lasted that long. You will get a lot more satisfaction from this game by going on TAD and playing there while avoiding otto players.