Germany vs Spain awkward?

[_H2O]

i generally defer to mitoe when explaining german vs not german matchups

[deleted_user0]

Mitoe never played vs proper spain. But ye in tad the mu is alot closer. Still him saying ww are good vs spain makes me doubt his expertise :p you can mass rod 15 skir 5 lancer vs ww uhlan skir. Rods will just swarm it all. Gers are better now in this mu cuz they can early tp easier, so the speed of the semi is increased while spain ff is nerfed. Still i think spain should come out on top, even vs fast BR

[Mitoe]

Mitoe never played vs proper spain. But ye in tad the mu is alot closer. Still him saying ww are good vs spain makes me doubt his expertise :p you can mass rod 15 skir 5 lancer vs ww uhlan skir. Rods will just swarm it all. Gers are better now in this mu cuz they can early tp easier, so the speed of the semi is increased while spain ff is nerfed. Still i think spain should come out on top, even vs fast BR

WWs are good in the matchup for a few reasons: they have the range to reach the falcs behind the HI mass, it''s awkward to use uhlans to block Lancer/HI (dopps are bad because you''d much rather use your age 2 resources to age and your rax time training skirmishers), and because you have skirmisher shipments and he doesn''t, you will usually have dominance in the skirmisher war, so he can''t really poke in enough to pick off your WWs effectively.

BR are good vs Spain, but gathering the 1000c and waiting the full 60 seconds for the shipment as soon as you hit fortress is pretty committal, and I''d say it''s actually a lot worse than just doing the standard FF or semi.

[Garja]

ww arent good vs spain =/

[Goodspeed]

ww skirm with some solid building placement is how you hold the timing. Idk how you're supposed to deal with the falcs without ww? You absolutely need them.

you will usually have dominance in the skirmisher war, so he can't really poke in enough to pick off your WWs effectively.

This. If you use that mechanic well and don't mismicro, you can pick off his falcs without even losing much.

[Garja]

Nah germans can't hold the lame ff (with rods only) with standard cav semi. By the time you have any ww out he has 15 rods and 2 cannons with more stuff on the way. Same goes for straight ff where germans get 6 skirms instead of 5 cav and cant even take down the tower.

[Goodspeed]

And they magically do hold with a dopp semi?

Have you tried 700w FF

[Mitoe]

Nah germans can''t hold the lame ff (with rods only) with standard cav semi. By the time you have any ww out he has 15 rods and 2 cannons with more stuff on the way. Same goes for straight ff where germans get 6 skirms instead of 5 cav and cant even take down the tower.

Well, standard cav semi is pretty useless vs Spain (with some tweaking it can be ok though), and you should never age with 6 skirm?

Just go 3 SW 700w and don''t make any units age 2 unless he does something in age 2. You''ll be up before him with a rax and a stable and a shipment ready.

[Garja]

And he will be taking down your tc 30 secs after that

[[Armag] diarouga]

And he will be taking down your tc 30 secs after that

Mitoe''s ff is faster than your semi, and 5 doppel won t change a game. Imo, that s almost the same.

[Mitoe]

And he will be taking down your tc 30 secs after that

That''s just not possible XD I can have the same mass, just no cannons. Cannons are really the only thing that poses a problem for Germany in this matchup.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Just play this mu: garja spain vs mitoe german.

[Mitoe]

Just play this mu: garja spain vs mitoe german.

Maybe when I have more time I won''t be able to play AoE3 until Saturday, and after that not until next Saturday

[WickedCossack]

I feel like 700c is just safer than 3sw 700wd. i) It's so much faster & ii) Extra shipment of 7skirm/3uhl or w.e

You don't need the 3SW to compete with spain, it's just a superfluous extra.

[Mitoe]

I feel like 700c is just safer than 3sw 700wd. i) It''s so much faster &' ii) Extra shipment of 7skirm/3uhl or w.e

You don''t need the 3SW to compete with spain, it''s just a superfluous extra.

Sure, you''ll get up about 40-50 seconds faster, and get an extra shipment out, but you won''t have the infrastructure. If you''re going to naked FF like that, why not just age with 500f and ship 3 SW and age at the same time as the 700c FF?

[WickedCossack]

I feel like 700c is just safer than 3sw 700wd. i) Its so much faster &' ii) Extra shipment of 7skirm/3uhl or w.e

You dont need the 3SW to compete with spain, its just a superfluous extra.

Sure, youll get up about 40-50 seconds faster, and get an extra shipment out, but you wont have the infrastructure. If youre going to naked FF like that, why not just age with 500f and ship 3 SW and age at the same time as the 700c FF?

Cause then you really really really would have no infastrcuture. ')

The 400wd is neccessary if youre not sending 700wd. You only need one production facility and use the shipments to complement your army composition.

[Mitoe]

Sure, youll get up about 40-50 seconds faster, and get an extra shipment out, but you wont have the infrastructure. If youre going to naked FF like that, why not just age with 500f and ship 3 SW and age at the same time as the 700c FF?

Cause then you really really really would have no infastrcuture. ')

The 400wd is neccessary if youre not sending 700wd. You only need one production facility and use the shipments to complement your army composition.

Idk. Ive never really used the 700c FF before, it just feels bad IMO Spain will probably be ahead in eco if you dont ship 3 SW, no? Unless theyre going really all in with their FF. Also, as soon as you manage to get 1-2 batches out from your 2nd military building, even if you aged a minute later, youre going to be ahead of the 700c FF by miles.

[WickedCossack]

Yea it feels like a noob strat just sending only 700c but I really feel like the 3SW are just an unnecessary risk. Assuming the 3SW are gathering the whole time with no TC garrison or movement it still takes between 7-8 mins for them payoff. That's already pretty long, and that doesn't include the opportunity cost of aging later and having less army which is a huge huge cost.

[Mitoe]

Yea it feels like a noob strat just sending only 700c but I really feel like the 3SW are just an unnecessary risk. Assuming the 3SW are gathering the whole time with no TC garrison or movement it still takes between 7-8 mins for them payoff. That''s already pretty long, and that doesn''t include the opportunity cost of aging later and having less army which is a huge huge cost.

It''s really not that much later. 700c is just really all-in =/

[Garja]

There is no room for delayed FF vs spain. Also it makes no sense to not semi ff with fre/germans when spain has the best straight ff out of those 3 civs.

[Mitoe]

There is no room for delayed FF vs spain. Also it makes no sense to not semi ff with fre/germans when spain has the best straight ff out of those 3 civs.

You''re going to have 2-4 uhlans to scout/raid with anyway, but doing a semi vs Spain can be awkward' they can rod-semi if you cav semi, which essentially makes your uhlans useless, and dopps are just too costly and take too long to train??and honestly quite useless in general, I don''t really understand why people like making them vs Spain, skirms are just better. So how is there no room for delayed FF if it gets up at the same time??if not earlier??than a semi-FF, only with better infrastructure? =/

[bart331]

Against piroshiki style:

Stay age2 make no eco just mass units and keep em defnesive out of his sight. Whenever he starts attacking you crush his army with your mass and win, its freepoints basically.

[Mitoe]

Against piroshiki style:

Stay age2 make no eco just mass units and keep em defnesive out of his sight. Whenever he starts attacking you crush his army with your mass and win, its freepoints basically.

Well Piroshiki''s build is just not very good honestly, and his micro could be better Otherwise I would never consider staying age 2 vs it.

[Garja]

There is no room for delayed FF vs spain. Also it makes no sense to not semi ff with fre/germans when spain has the best straight ff out of those 3 civs.

Youre going to have 2-4 uhlans to scout/raid with anyway, but doing a semi vs Spain can be awkward' they can rod-semi if you cav semi, which essentially makes your uhlans useless, and dopps are just too costly and take too long to train??and honestly quite useless in general, I dont really understand why people like making them vs Spain, skirms are just better. So how is there no room for delayed FF if it gets up at the same time??if not earlier??than a semi-FF, only with better infrastructure? =/

I just tested 3sw 700w FF with fast age. You age up more or less with at the same time as spain FF with everything squeezed to the max and also in a quite committed way (cuz you used 500f age up).

If you make stable and WW (sending 8 skirms) you wont have enough army (neither while waiting for the shipment nor when it finally arrives).
If you make rax (sending 3WW) its the same but you have even less stuff to deal with cannons.

You need 5 dopps to try kill the tower and also because they block huss/lancers/rods while WW and ulhans cant do that. Of course youre making skirms after that, but one batch of dopps isnt bad while you feel you need more anticav.

As semi vs semi ,germans are just better doing that provided it is not ulhan semi.

[Mitoe]

Youre going to have 2-4 uhlans to scout/raid with anyway, but doing a semi vs Spain can be awkward' they can rod-semi if you cav semi, which essentially makes your uhlans useless, and dopps are just too costly and take too long to train??and honestly quite useless in general, I dont really understand why people like making them vs Spain, skirms are just better. So how is there no room for delayed FF if it gets up at the same time??if not earlier??than a semi-FF, only with better infrastructure? =/

I just tested 3sw 700w FF with fast age. You age up more or less with at the same time as spain FF with everything squeezed to the max and also in a quite committed way (cuz you used 500f age up).

If you make stable and WW (sending 8 skirms) you wont have enough army (neither while waiting for the shipment nor when it finally arrives).
If you make rax (sending 3WW) its the same but you have even less stuff to deal with cannons.

You need 5 dopps to try kill the tower and also because they block huss/lancers/rods while WW and ulhans cant do that. Of course youre making skirms after that, but one batch of dopps isnt bad while you feel you need more anticav.

As semi vs semi ,germans are just better doing that provided it is not ulhan semi.

I actually almost never use 500f age up, even with naked FF. 400w is just better and more adaptable, and you can make rax AND stable in transition to fortress. What time did you reach age 3? You should be up around 7:00 - 7:30 slightly before him.