Best counter to FI?

iNcog · Post by **iNcog** » 15 Apr 2015, 17:00

Well, I just hate FI on principle. I feel like it's gimmicky.

However I'm not sure what the best course of action to take against FI is. I thought about in my head a bit after losing one particularly humiliating game.

I've decided that the best thing to do is to just siege down the TC.

What do real players think?

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 15 Apr 2015, 17:05

Imo, vs a fi, either semi ff and timing with falcs or rush with units that don t get oss by a tc with cm.
For exemple, as France, you can dble musk rush a jap or port fi or semi 10pike vs jap and 5huss vs port and push with skirm/goon/falc.

iNcog · Post by **iNcog** » 15 Apr 2015, 17:18

What about Japan? Just siege it down with Ashi/Yumi? Japan is kind of a slowish civ so it's hard to get the timing right, I guess?

hmm

When someone FI'd vs me in a jap mirror, I tried to follow to fortress but that just gave him time to get to Industrial and from there it was an easy win for him.

princeofkabul · Post by **princeofkabul** » 15 Apr 2015, 17:28

Ummm... What about rush?

Goodspeed · Post by **Goodspeed** » 15 Apr 2015, 17:38

Obviously he'll adapt out of the FI if you rush him? And then he just wins because rushing isn't viable.

Anyway the answer is do a timing. He spent 3200 res, you have more units. Kill him in the small window you have.
The thing with Jap mirrors is that you need the 4 FA, and those last 2 FA take a long time to get to his base. You can't push before they're there, and by then he's already going up. Idk if there even is a winning timing there unless you sack eco. It's the same kind of deal if you want to punish a fortress age up in a Jap mirror, you just can't because the incomes are so high that the longer reinforcement route becomes very valuable* (added to the defender's advantage with mm and buildings).

*The higher your income, the more valuable time is. If you're gathering like an Otto would, the 30 sec reinforcement route may be worth like 5 jans. In case of Japan it's worth >'10 ashi.

WickedCossack · Post by **WickedCossack** » 15 Apr 2015, 17:40

Very easy, just make sure Boneng isn't online when you queue up for matchmaking ...

CuCkO0 · Post by **CuCkO0** » 15 Apr 2015, 17:44

Hahaha^^^

Just match the FI and rape in a mirror?

divine_moon · Post by **divine_moon** » 15 Apr 2015, 18:03

Low Level Player input:

I've come across a few (3/4 ) guys trying to go fast industrial against me (i've been playing sioux off late). usually a rush works...rather using the cav to raid the eco worked very well for me, it slows down the FI.

I DID have trouble against a Port. dude who shipped some card "colonial militia", & he kept popping out MM from his various TCs!
rather large batches of MM that too :O

iNcog · Post by **iNcog** » 15 Apr 2015, 18:07

calmyourtits wrote:Obviously he''ll adapt out of the FI if you rush him? And then he just wins because rushing isn''t viable.

Anyway the answer is do a timing. He spent 3200 res, you have more units. Kill him in the small window you have.
The thing with Jap mirrors is that you need the 4 FA, and those last 2 FA take a long time to get to his base. You can''t push before they''re there, and by then he''s already going up. Idk if there even is a winning timing there unless you sack eco. It''s the same kind of deal if you want to punish a fortress age up in a Jap mirror, you just can''t because the incomes are so high that the longer reinforcement route becomes very valuable* (added to the defender''s advantage with mm and buildings).

*The higher your income, the more valuable time is. If you''re gathering like an Otto would, the 30 sec reinforcement route may be worth like 5 jans. In case of Japan it''s worth >10 ashi.

Yeah that makes sense.

I think pressure sure be applied at all times to have an idea of unit count. with more military, you should be able to do things

The problem with pressuring the enemy is that there is always that constant risk of overextending, which is often game-losing. it''s tough really

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 15 Apr 2015, 21:10

most civs just age up for the 2 HC shipment or 4 flaming arrows, you can just boom really hard and have culvs ready?

princeofkabul · Post by **princeofkabul** » 16 Apr 2015, 06:43

Rushing ain't viable? What you've been smoking GS? Rushing opponent to do damage is always viable, i don't mean Like balls to the walls kind of Rush. Vs Japan you can win when you kill shrines and take map. No need to Rush to the base. It's always good to delay their builds imo. And opponent adapting would be problem? Then you're pretty much the one who is denying his strat in first place. And why would it be sure win for ur opponent if he "adapts" you adapt to his adapting then and so on Lol?

princeofkabul · Post by **princeofkabul** » 16 Apr 2015, 06:46

But ye timing push can work just as good np.

Goodspeed · Post by **Goodspeed** » 16 Apr 2015, 07:04

princeofkabul wrote:Rushing ain''t viable? What you''ve been smoking GS? Rushing opponent to do damage is always viable, i don''t mean Like balls to the walls kind of Rush. Vs Japan you can win when you kill shrines and take map. No need to Rush to the base. It''s always good to delay their builds imo. And opponent adapting would be problem? Then you''re pretty much the one who is denying his strat in first place. And why would it be sure win for ur opponent if he "adapts" you adapt to his adapting then and so on Lol?

Thing with Jap mirrors is delaying his build by making early units delays your own build even more. 600w late double rax is simply the most efficient way to go about it. And if you''re just killing shrines around the map, in which case I wouldn''t call it a rush, it''s just not worth it.
The forward raxes to shorten the reinforcement route are good though. Makes any timings scarier, but then again it also makes you vulnerable to them.

Yes you can adapt to his adaptation, but it doesn''t keep going like that and magically stay equal... If you both choose a build and you chose the less eco heavy build, he adapts from the build that would lose to it to a build that holds pressure while having more eco you''re already behind significantly. You have no way of magically equalizing with perfect adaptation.

princeofkabul · Post by **princeofkabul** » 16 Apr 2015, 07:07

Kay my tits are calm. Didn't know we're talking about Japan FI's in a mirror. Just countering FI strats in general?

princeofkabul · Post by **princeofkabul** » 16 Apr 2015, 07:11

Because i agree with that u said about Japan mirror build. Late 2 rax prolonged colonial with many units is just slower your build significally and speed is key here.

Goodspeed · Post by **Goodspeed** » 16 Apr 2015, 07:11

Rushing to counter a potential FI is still silly, because he'll adapt out of it and win because rushing isn't viable ')

I'm sure there are match ups where it is viable, but in the vast majority of cases it isn't.

princeofkabul · Post by **princeofkabul** » 16 Apr 2015, 07:18

Well ye, actually ur right when im thinking it again lol. Im such a dumbass Lol.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 16 Apr 2015, 07:23

Rush is viable, probably next meta switch

princeofkabul · Post by **princeofkabul** » 16 Apr 2015, 07:25

Ye but makes whole lot sense to max out ur eco and push with greater mass, bigger damage input in shorter time if you do so.
Only exception for me is Japan mirror where i rather follow him to IV and play it out from there.

Goodspeed · Post by **Goodspeed** » 16 Apr 2015, 07:29

garja wrote:Rush is viable, probably next meta switch

I''d say it''s more likely the meta will move even further away from rushing as time goes on. But we''ll see.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 16 Apr 2015, 08:14

It has already moved further if you consider that now you can make 10 ashis and age up unpunished from a late double (that is on most maps under most of conditions). People are already straight FFing (FIing) because of that.
Time to complete the rock-paper-scissor- cycle.

Goodspeed · Post by **Goodspeed** » 16 Apr 2015, 08:16

Except a rush is too easy to scout and adapt to. See above discussion

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 16 Apr 2015, 08:24

Ye and the adaptation you need is something that looks like a rush itself or a slighty greedier version of a rush, aka repeating the cycle.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 16 Apr 2015, 10:30

In Jap mirror you can see your opponent's shipments, so, if he is sending military ships and skips 4vills, you ll see it and adapt.

Next meta game will be water boom!!!

ESOC

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