Samwise12 French Build

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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

He says «regardless of ...» lol
No of course if you want to semi with 700w, 4/700w/700g is better because you have more.
And as I pointed out, with 700w first vs a big rush you only get 3huss instead of 4 and 4 less vills to defend.
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by momuuu »

If you are staying colonial why precisely would you not go for either TPs or two military buildings? I fear garja might be right with that statement.

Actually, I have something useful to say here: If you're staying colonial, without an age 1 TP, the 700w does seem to get in a little bit late. With an age 1 TP however, I tested that and felt that doing 4 cdb 700w is much better even in the scenario that you are staying age 2.
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by Kaiserklein »

Jerom wrote:If you are staying colonial why precisely would you not go for either TPs or two military buildings? I fear garja might be right with that statement.

Why would you need instant rax + stable ? Most of the time you can afford sending cdbs first because you don't need to mix super early. Also building 2 buildings, if you took a TP, is mostly useless because you won't have the resources to produce interesting batches from both buildings anyway. The samwise build isn't with a TP, so going for it means you both delay 4 cdbs and cut the TP. If you don't cut the TP, then having rax + stable is useless because you will have 4/5 musks 2 huss out or sth.
If you want to go for early TP boom you can send 700w first yeah, but in most match ups you can't afford insta stagecoach boom anyway.

Jerom wrote:Actually, I have something useful to say here: If you're staying colonial, without an age 1 TP, the 700w does seem to get in a little bit late. With an age 1 TP however, I tested that and felt that doing 4 cdb 700w is much better even in the scenario that you are staying age 2.

With a transition TP, you'll still have your 700w early lol. Not sure about the exact time but I'd say on average it would be 20 sec after your 4 cdbs popped or sth. That's not really late... Anyway I don't see why you would need 700w so badly early on
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by Jaeger »

Well this brings up the question, when was the samwise 5 musk 5 huss build ever good? I mean if you push with 5 musk 5 huss you will lose cost effectively to units+mm, and if you wait until you have enough mass to push into mm, at that time the TP would have paid for itself already.
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by momuuu »

I was practising some build vs aztec cav start into musks (legit build, Mitoe taught me it) and it did really feel like the 700w was late without starting TP.

But quite honestly, in what scenario do you want to stay colonial precisely but delay 700w by that amount. Its not much but it matters a lot. I mean, if you can wait till 700w cant you simply do 700g instead and semi ff?
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by momuuu »

ovi12 wrote:Well this brings up the question, when was the samwise 5 musk 5 huss build ever good? I mean if you push with 5 musk 5 huss you will lose cost effectively to units+mm, and if you wait until you have enough mass to push into mm, at that time the TP would have paid for itself already.

On maps with bad hunts I dont see how any build can be better than samwise bo, so in a sense the BO is definitely good. Also dont really see anything much better on no TP maps.
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by Kaiserklein »

ovi12 wrote:Well this brings up the question, when was the samwise 5 musk 5 huss build ever good? I mean if you push with 5 musk 5 huss you will lose cost effectively to units+mm, and if you wait until you have enough mass to push into mm, at that time the TP would have paid for itself already.

Well I guess back then, when the samwise build was much used, people didn't take TPs as often as now. And without TP, the samwise build is definitely good. Even in the TP meta it's not bad though, it's sometimes useful in some match ups

Jerom wrote:I was practising some build vs aztec cav start into musks (legit build, Mitoe taught me it) and it did really feel like the 700w was late without starting TP.

Again, 700w isn't delayed by a lot. Unless you miss the xp or sth. But with a decent TP you'll have it quite fast. Even with no TP at all it comes rather fast lol, as long as you're producing units. I remember doing a double bow/pike rush as france recently, without a TP, and I got my second shipment on the floor during my 3rd batch of xbows, so less than a minute after 700w. With a TP you can easily guess how fast 2nd shipment comes.
But ofc it depends on what TP you're taking, on what treasures you got, how many units you produce and kill, etc.

Jerom wrote:But quite honestly, in what scenario do you want to stay colonial precisely but delay 700w by that amount. Its not much but it matters a lot. I mean, if you can wait till 700w cant you simply do 700g instead and semi ff?

That's the point, 700w isn't delayed by a lot. You shouldn't really need it earlier anyway.
Going 4 cdb / 700g semi ff is most of the time pretty bad compared to 4 cdb / 700w / 700g. It's more versatile to ship 700w because it allows you to adapt more easily to your opponent, but you don't need it super early because early on 1 military building should be enough and you should have enough population space.
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Jerom wrote:If you are staying colonial why precisely would you not go for either TPs or two military buildings? I fear garja might be right with that statement.

Actually, I have something useful to say here: If you're staying colonial, without an age 1 TP, the 700w does seem to get in a little bit late. With an age 1 TP however, I tested that and felt that doing 4 cdb 700w is much better even in the scenario that you are staying age 2.

Wait, I haven't said that 4v/700w is ALWAYS better. Of course for a tp boom it is.
I just said that the standard build is 4v/700w, and in mirror, 4v/700w is better than 700w/4v.
Also the argument that you have your rax earlier is bs, you have your musk batch 30sec earlier, but 3 huss instead of 4-5...
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by Goodspeed »

ovi12 wrote:Well this brings up the question, when was the samwise 5 musk 5 huss build ever good? I mean if you push with 5 musk 5 huss you will lose cost effectively to units+mm, and if you wait until you have enough mass to push into mm, at that time the TP would have paid for itself already.
It was good because of where the meta was at the time. TP meta wasn't a thing yet back then and the 5-5 batch was a great way to force map control early on which was a big deal in the prolonged colonial musk+huss wars French mirrors (and many other match ups) often came down to.
The build is definitely outdated though, as are most builds from that era. On maps with TPs that is.
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by zoom »

As opposed to being a small deal in Stagecoach Trade-Route wars?
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by Kaiserklein »

You don't start with 2 military buildings if you rush for TPs
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:You don't start with 2 military buildings if you rush for TPs
Well, it seems like it would be a sensible option if you want military superiority over the Trade Route.
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by lordraphael »

Goodspeed wrote:
ovi12 wrote:Well this brings up the question, when was the samwise 5 musk 5 huss build ever good? I mean if you push with 5 musk 5 huss you will lose cost effectively to units+mm, and if you wait until you have enough mass to push into mm, at that time the TP would have paid for itself already.
It was good because of where the meta was at the time. TP meta wasn't a thing yet back then and the 5-5 batch was a great way to force map control early on which was a big deal in the prolonged colonial musk+huss wars French mirrors (and many other match ups) often came down to.
The build is definitely outdated though, as are most builds from that era. On maps with TPs that is.

ye and map control was important because the maps were bad. On esoc maps even without the tp meta this build would have been far less common
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by Kaiserklein »

zoom wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:You don't start with 2 military buildings if you rush for TPs
Well, it seems like it would be a sensible option if you want military superiority over the Trade Route.

Nah, if you rush the TP line it means you're going to have an age 1 TP or a transition TP, both meaning that the samwise build doesn't work (you won't have enough resources to get interesting batches from both rax + stable).
You can send 700w first and get a 2nd building though. But then again, since you need to take TPs, maybe also pay for stagecoach, and probs build (at least) a house, I'm not sure a second building would be relevant in that case. I'd rather wait for the wood income from the TPs to build it, and before that, mass only cav or musks.
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by rafacavalhiere »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:No. In the current meta, tp while aging 4v/700w is better most of the time.

I thing this bo, is more effective.
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

rafacavalhiere wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:No. In the current meta, tp while aging 4v/700w is better most of the time.

I thing this bo, is more effective.

My bos are all more effective than the others.
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by DaRkNiTe1698 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
rafacavalhiere wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:No. In the current meta, tp while aging 4v/700w is better most of the time.

I thing this bo, is more effective.

My bos are all more effective than the others.
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by rafacavalhiere »

lol
Who wanna 1v1 with Diarouga and prove the other hand? _ Rec, please.
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by lemmings121 »

rafacavalhiere wrote:lol
Who wanna 1v1 with Diarouga and prove the other hand? _ Rec, please.


hey! its me in your signature. :love:
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by KINGofOsmane »

rafacavalhiere wrote:lol
Who wanna 1v1 with Diarouga and prove the other hand? _ Rec, please.

tp builds are better sry
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by rafacavalhiere »

lemmings121 wrote:
rafacavalhiere wrote:lol
Who wanna 1v1 with Diarouga and prove the other hand? _ Rec, please.


hey! its me in your signature. :love:


miss you...
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by Hazza54321 »

you're all gay
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by Squamiger »

it's time to bring this back in 2022
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

I am 100% sure the advanced tutorial for BOs is actually Samwise French
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Re: Samwise12 French Build

Post by Synchro »

Squamiger wrote:
12 Oct 2022, 18:55
it's time to bring this back in 2022
Who Samwise or his build?
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