anything vs japan

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Brazil lemmings121
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anything vs japan

Post by lemmings121 »

So.. I really have no idea how to properly play against japs.. let me explain.

I few like I must keep constant pressure + kills shrines to contain it, but never really attack him.. well, a ball of ashi+yumi and later flaming arrows behind buildings kill anything, so I cant attack directly.

So most of my games I just "try" to contain, but i can never really do damage, so eventually i'm against a industrial japan, witch is pretty much unkillable..



Ideas? thoughts? cheatcodes?
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Post by shirine »

Dont let shirines arround the map.... never!
Try kill the Explorer, its VERY GOOD tricky against japan!
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

You should kill his shrines and then timing at 8-9 min.
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Post by iNcog »

You should play against Japan (or any civ) with a few early goals in mind (e.g. before 10 minute mark). These are mine at the moment, maybe a better player who is playing at a higher level will have other goals :

- Push the town center without over-extending and force idle villager time, villager kills and unit kills. All of this is "if possible without over-extending".

- Second goal is to prevent monks from putting up more shrines. So scout all the hunts in discovery and try to find the monks so as to prevent them from doing their job.

- Ashi suck without their card upgrades, so they aren't actually that great early on. Yumi are better but as before, it's best to try to deal with them before the upgrades and eco.

- Kill any shrine you can I guess
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Post by CuCkO0 »

There's a window with Japan early on that you must take advantage of.
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Post by Garja »

cucko0 wrote:There''s a window with Japan early on that you must take advantage of.

Ye it all comes down to this. Either you exploit this with a rush or with a semi-FF.
You can''t play vs Japan as it was any other civ, you either win at one specific point or you won''t really win. Maybe 3-4 civs are exceptions to this rule.
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Post by musketjr »

lemmings121 wrote:So.. I really have no idea how to properly play against japs.. let me explain.

I few like I must keep constant pressure + kills shrines to contain it, but never really attack him.. well, a ball of ashi+yumi and later flaming arrows behind buildings kill anything, so I cant attack directly.

So most of my games I just "try" to contain, but i can never really do damage, so eventually i''m against a industrial japan, witch is pretty much unkillable..



Ideas? thoughts? cheatcodes?

you''re right although they dont become unkillable in industrial, japan wins the game if they havent clicked resign by 8 minutes, or i suppose 9 at the latest.

thematically do what garja said, you go for a timing in early age 2 or early age 3

specifically how to play it? no god damn idea, i was getting it wrong every time
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Post by Goodspeed »

There are 2 ways to play against Japan. Either you go for an early timing to kill their army and win, or you choke them by killing shrines. Which one is the way to go depends on the match up and how they played it early on.

Most civs can take map control and kill all of Japan's shrines. At that point Japan is a lot less scary, they have to start sending orchards which is awkward and their eco is mediocre at best. Their units are still great, sure, but outmassing them is doable if you can keep the shrine count low. To make this happen though, you have to be really on top of constantly scouting around the map for shrines, and hunting down explorers whenever you can.
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Post by edeholland »

Which civs would you recommend to use for early timing?

French is a civ that can do xbow/pike, double musk but also a semi-ff with falcs, what would you recommend against Japan on, for example, Great Plains?
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Post by jono »

Timing is essential in any MU vs Japan. Your strat on GP completely depends on what the other player is doing and all the usual variables, but generally I'd probably semi. Early game Jap will struggle to deal with your falcs, so I would siege with musk/pike age 2 and focus on shrines until you're up (go single rax into age up).

I play this MU with Germans in a similar way - single rax pike into Fortress. It's a slightly different dynamic as the free uhlan can pressure eco and the stronger unit shipments in age 3 favour Germans, but of course they have no falc shipment.

Remember to keep up pressure at all times and as soon as you're in age 3 &' have units pressure. The biggest mistake lower levels make is to think 'oh let me just wait for my next batch of units from my rax to protect my falcs, they're almost here just 30 more seconds', when you already have enough units to press. Any delay in pressure is just handing the advantage to the Jap player.

I posted a rec I had in the recorded forums. Maybe not the best play, but if it can help someone then great.
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Post by lemmings121 »

Thanks guys, will try to improve in this mu ')
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Post by oxaloacetate »

incog wrote:- Ashi suck without their card upgrades,
Is that a fact?
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Post by Garja »

They're still good but not OP. Standard musks are probably better for cost.
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Post by iNcog »

yeah suck is maybe exaggerating a bit however ashigaru without the upgrade cards aren't that impressive to me. unlike yumi perhaps

ashigaru are really expensive which is why losing too many early game can hurt' trading normal musk for ashi is a nice cost-efficient trade imo, especially if you can do it early game before the mass of ashi/yumi becomes too large to handle efficiently. the bigger the mass of yumi and ashi, the more powerful it becomes in a fight. so it's nice to fight nice & early with 'em, imo
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Post by lemmings121 »

So, i was watching the rgs from the spring champ that I missed, mostly from kynesie games..
And although people say that japs are a "weak" civ, i couldnt find a game were people actually beat it..

Everyone seems to just mirror against japs, somppukukko tried germans ff and got destroyed, same as Elpistolero's indians..


This style with lots of walls seems even harder to beat, does anyone have a clear counter to it?
(maybe even was a tournament game that I missed?)



Gs said "early timing to kill their army and win, or you choke them by killing shrines"

choking by killing shrines doesnt seem to actually work, you lose so much time killing them, that even killing shrines and booming, you end up behind in eco, while super early pushes are hold with yumi/ashi/buildings, and most fort timings seems to lose to wall+buildings + a ball of yumis..
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

lemmings121 wrote:So, i was watching the rgs from the spring champ that I missed, mostly from kynesie games..
And although people say that japs are a "weak" civ, i couldnt find a game were people actually beat it..

Everyone seems to just mirror against japs, somppukukko tried germans ff and got destroyed, same as Elpistolero''s indians..


This style with lots of walls seems even harder to beat, does anyone have a clear counter to it?
(maybe even was a tournament game that I missed?)



Gs said "early timing to kill their army and win, or you choke them by killing shrines"

choking by killing shrines doesnt seem to actually work, you lose so much time killing them, that even killing shrines and booming, you end up behind in eco, while super early pushes are hold with yumi/ashi/buildings, and most fort timings seems to lose to wall+buildings + a ball of yumis..
[span] [/span]Well, in tournament eveybody Mirror. Pistolero_[span] did a weird strat, that doesn''t work, Watch _H2O vs Soldier, _H2O won easily as india.[/span]
[span]Sompu lost because he did too much eco.[/span]
[span][/span]
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Post by Nymphomaniac »

better watch 1st game nagayumi vs prince of kabul , Japan vs Germany & Germany wins by kind of outbooming and containing japan...
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Post by Hazza54321 »

cerebralassasin wrote:better watch 1st game nagayumi vs prince of kabul , Japan vs Germany &' Germany wins by kind of outbooming and containing japan...
and outplaying lol
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Post by Durokan »

Is it ever worth it to ship 5 spies against japan to keep their explorers dead and kill their boom? It works in the trench but idk about games with respectable players. IE 10/10 port musket pressure with 5 spies first shipment in colonial. It works as a cheese strat like i said in the trench. (pr 20 +- 5)
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Post by Jaeger »

durokan wrote:Is it ever worth it to ship 5 spies against japan to keep their explorers dead and kill their boom? It works in the trench but idk about games with respectable players. IE 10/10 port musket pressure with 5 spies first shipment in colonial. It works as a cheese strat like i said in the trench. (pr 20 +- 5)
It doesnt sound good at all, you might get to kill their explorers if they''re not paying attention, but if you don''t ship resources or units first with 10/10 portuguese, you army will just pose a threat level of -4 to the japanese
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Post by yurashic »

1. Play China and FI.
2. Play Otto and FF. Build a mosque from age up wood and make a spy, kill jap explorers so they can't build shrines.
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anything vs japan

Post by Marco1698 »

Japan is op. Only chance you have to win vs them it's just the rush. Semi-ff won't help because it's very hard succeed to kill japan's villagers. There is a video on interjection's channel's where the game commentated is Darwin vs a guy who seems to be grunt (I think he isn't). That game show how hard can be for Japan reject the rush. Russian for example is fine to rush so utilise it against japs is viable.
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

marco1698 wrote:Japan is op. Only chance you have to win vs them it''s just the rush. Semi-ff won''t help because it''s very hard succeed to kill japan''s villagers. There is a video on interjection''s channel''s where the game commentated is Darwin vs a guy who seems to be grunt (I think he isn''t). That game show how hard can be for Japan reject the rush. Russian for example is fine to rush so utilise it against japs is viable.
Japan isn''t op, the thing is just that noobs don''t know how to counter it.
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anything vs japan

Post by Marco1698 »

diarouga wrote:
marco1698 wrote:Japan is op. Only chance you have to win vs them its just the rush. Semi-ff wont help because its very hard succeed to kill japans villagers. There is a video on interjections channels where the game commentated is Darwin vs a guy who seems to be grunt (I think he isnt). That game show how hard can be for Japan reject the rush. Russian for example is fine to rush so utilise it against japs is viable.
Japan isnt op, the thing is just that noobs dont know how to counter it.

rush counter it

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