Beating Russia with French...

_venox_ · Post by **_venox_** » 03 May 2015, 15:31

I played Russia for quite some time now and I am by no means a strong Russian player, but I think that you either need a very well thought out and customised semi-ff or constant pressure against those civs. Your boom just isn't good enough to hold against potential fortress pressure and too slow to keep up with their booms. You need to always trade off a little army or economy (having idle tc time but getting more pressure to do some economical damage) until your efficient villagers and bojars kick in. Theoretically Russian musketeers aren't bad, but costing less and being low quality also has it's downsides. If you don't have a big infantry ball then hussars (+musk) can attack you and the huss will take much damage but they don't die whilst your musketeers all died. Also a problem if close to building facilities or shipment drop off points. So if your infantry ball is too small then a slight army difference can snowball very fast, where normal muskets would stand their ground way better. So to be save against musk/huss you need a big chunk of infantry, but then you're a bit immobile against raids. Ger vs Ru is imo very map dependent (how much gold/food and if vulnerable or not). But what is nice is that most of my opponents underestimate the power of Russian units.

BTW I am a terrible Russia player since I struggle against France a lot. Huss mm > early push, need inf mass vs cav but cdb 40% ranged resist, they can semi easily, if enough food their musk/huss beats me most of the time because france just has more units out at minute 8 and a better economy, and mixing in strelets made me too weak against cavalry. :/

alexandre7 · Post by **alexandre7** » 03 May 2015, 16:14

I haven't gone through all the things already discussed on this thread but as a pure french player, I have had rather easy time against russia. I make a stable and barrack immediately after age up, behind my tc. Queue 1 hussar + 1musk. AS i get resources, i keep stacking more units and end up spawning 5 hussar + 4 musk or 5 musk + 4 hssar (and sometimes perfect start depending on treasures). I send 700w as my 2nd card for houses + tp + steel traps etc.
The starting army + minute man + tc fire are more than sufficent to ward off the early russian rush.

Its worked for me so far upto opponents of rank captain, although to get it right you'll have to master village allocation for all starting crates use-cases + treasure combinations. I am not sure at what level you play though.

Goodspeed · Post by **Goodspeed** » 03 May 2015, 17:57

France's musk huss timing can work against greedy Russia play but if they send 700g first they will have enough stuff to hold https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h70QycTLdKI. I haven't tested this but I expect the timing is holdable with 700w 700g 5 coss too.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 03 May 2015, 18:39

Btw
How should russia mirror be played?
Idk much about this mu, age with 14 or 17 vills, spice trade or 5cos?

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 03 May 2015, 18:58

calmyourtits wrote:France''s musk huss timing can work against greedy Russia play but if they send 700g first they will have enough stuff to hold https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h70QycTLdKI. I haven''t tested this but I expect the timing is holdable with 700w 700g 5 coss too.

If I''m not mistaken 700w 700g 5coss is what Bsop is doing recently.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 03 May 2015, 19:15

garja wrote:
calmyourtits wrote:Frances musk huss timing can work against greedy Russia play but if they send 700g first they will have enough stuff to hold https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h70QycTLdKI. I havent tested this but I expect the timing is holdable with 700w 700g 5 coss too.
If Im not mistaken 700w 700g 5coss is what Bsop is doing recently.

No, he is doing spice trade 700w 5coss.
You didn t answer me ')

blackstarop · Post by **blackstarop** » 03 May 2015, 19:20

Against germz im doing 700w 700f 700c 5 coz preferable 2 blocks at home def uhlans then push in 8:30 with 45musk 10 coz+5 otw. Against france i prefer 2 forward blocks with cosack start then just post back musks if he start huss first musk batch after ST and placer mines done,then i do 700w for 2nd bh and houses can also do a 700c after for ageup or just 700f for bigger mass and ur fine.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 03 May 2015, 19:22

blackstar wrote:Against germz im doing 700w 700f 700c 5 coz preferable 2 blocks at home def uhlans then push in 8:30 with 45musk 10 coz+5 otw. Against france i prefer 2 forward blocks with cosack start then just post back musks if he start huss first musk batch after ST and placer mines done,then i do 700w for 2nd bh and houses can also do a 700c after for ageup or just 700f for bigger mass and ur fine.

700f?!

blackstarop · Post by **blackstarop** » 03 May 2015, 19:24

Ye i do 700f and i do my 2nd gold up with it then i just spamm constant 5/5 musks i can outmass french by like 30 musk in 2 mins xD also i send 600f aswell depends just if france stay in colonial or not

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 03 May 2015, 21:30

I think the reason Russian musks are bad is because of the low HP. If a cav unit comes close to a musk, the musk has a bit of delay before it starts attacking in melee mode. The problem with Russian musks is they have so low HP that when cav comes close to them, they die in a few hits so they go trough that long delay but then die fast after they are in melee.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 03 May 2015, 21:50

Pro tip: you don't go meele with all your musks until he surrounds you. Try just kiting next time.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 04 May 2015, 00:45

garja wrote:Pro tip: you don''t go meele with all your musks until he surrounds you. Try just kiting next time.

I don''t put all in melee lol I put only a few of them from the front in melee. I''m saying if you leave the musks alone they will shoot until the huss come close, but then they will automatically switch to melee. But when a musk switches automatically to melee, it doesn''t attack the huss at all for a second or so, and in that second the huss already does so much damage to the musk that it doesn''t survive much longer.

My point is that if you have 10 normal musks vs cav and 20 half-as-good musks vs cav, the 10 will do much better.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 04 May 2015, 01:07

Actually it depends on many factors. 20 half-as-good units instead of 10 may actually be better depending on the surround, etc.
In the case of Russia is just 20% less good. It is a weakness when you have few units but when you have a decent mass it is actually a strenght. Each cav can only attack one unit so the pathing will be quite problematic. That's why you always want to kite till you're forced to go meele.
About the strike animation I think it's the same for huss and musks but ofc you have to consider the 3.0 ROF if you already fired.

_venox_ · Post by **_venox_** » 04 May 2015, 04:53

It's not about hussar doing the damage, after all a hussar does the same damage to a musk (meele resist) than a musketeer would shooting. So it's about having to deal with the damage tanking hussars while enemy musketeer shot you down unharmed. And russian musketeer being weaker means that their count will snowball down faster, but the pros are that the enemy will likely overkill them a bit.

SoldieR · Post by **SoldieR** » 04 May 2015, 08:07

diarouga wrote:Btw
How should russia mirror be played?
Idk much about this mu, age with 14 or 17 vills, spice trade or 5cos?

In my few experiences, stable start with 5coss->'4coss->'13strel + MM wins well

lordcharlie131 · Post by **lordcharlie131** » 04 May 2015, 08:36

iamsoldier wrote:
diarouga wrote:Btw
How should russia mirror be played?
Idk much about this mu, age with 14 or 17 vills, spice trade or 5cos?
In my few experiences, stable start with 5coss->'4coss->'13strel + MM wins well

Samwise12 made in the Saturday Smackdown something "new" and won.
Skip shipment in Age 1
14 vill Age up
skip producing vills
make streletes
+ fast Shipments 5 cos/ 4 cos/13 strel ->' attack

Dont know, maybe is this the new standard BO in this mirror.

Darwin played a cos/musk Combo early with constant villager production, while training musk and cos from shipments, i think.

princeofkabul · Post by **princeofkabul** » 04 May 2015, 09:31

lordcharlie131 wrote:
iamsoldier wrote:In my few experiences, stable start with 5coss->4coss->13strel + MM wins well
Samwise12 made in the Saturday Smackdown something "new" and won.
Skip shipment in Age 1
14 vill Age up
skip?producing vills
make streletes
+ fast Shipments?5?cos/ 4 cos/13 strel?-> attack?

Dont know, maybe is this the new standard BO in this mirror.

Darwin played a cos/musk?Combo early with constant villager production, while training musk?and cos from shipments,?i think.?

I watched obs between Blackstar and somppukunkku where somppu skipped wood trickle to gain early military adv with 1 extra mili shipment early colonial, however he got molested Like shit. Ofc the skill gap between them is quite significant but I think skipping wood trickle is still quite silly.

Mitoe · Post by **Mitoe** » 04 May 2015, 09:35

I haven't played Russian mirror much if at all, but from what I've seen a lot of it depends on where the blockhouses are. I'm not sure what to do if the blockhouses are in different locations, but if both are forward it seems best to skip vills and ship units until someone prevails and kills the other's blockhouse. After killing the blockhouse you probably have a small window to deal damage while he rebuilds the blockhouse, and can probably force a minutemen pop and maybe even kill a couple of vills, and then you just fall back and hold the map to win.

Dunno about skipping the first shipment, I feel like I would still ship wood trickle or 300w and maybe build a TP in transition if I expected both blockhouses to be forward. That being said, I've never tested this build, so I have no clue if you can continuously make units after taking the TP in transition with the wood trickle. It's very possible that you can't do it without good treasures' with 300w it should be possible though.

jono · Post by **jono** » 04 May 2015, 12:02

Back in the day it was quite common for full coss for the first 8-9 mins before even making a BH, given Russian musk suck and coss have two upgrade cards before age 3

_venox_ · Post by **_venox_** » 04 May 2015, 14:37

Is the Russian cheaper monks a good card to send after the usual stuff in a mirror match? Them having 405 hp 10% ranged resist and costing only 100 coin is quite a nice meat shield.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 04 May 2015, 14:49

No, make normal units

alexandre7 · Post by **alexandre7** » 04 May 2015, 17:21

calmyourtits wrote:France''s musk huss timing can work against greedy Russia play but if they send 700g first they will have enough stuff to hold https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h70QycTLdKI. I haven''t tested this but I expect the timing is holdable with 700w 700g 5 coss too.

I saw your match against garja. It was a nice rush indeed but he could have held up if he had stayed in tc range and not come forward to attack you, right? In my matches, the opponent didnt capture my forward hunts, instead was closer to his base or on side (rockies map), so maybe thats why I didnt struggle. But if I have to try solve the problem thread started described, I would try this idea from a veni''s game that what if we send minuteman, if we scout a forward russian villie? Then kill it before it can complete rax? I saw veni do it to an otto guy, same can be tried for russian to delay them.
In that case I would just go 5 hussar semi-ff.

Will be much harder to execute than to just say it though..

benj89 · Post by **benj89** » 04 May 2015, 17:25

if you want to play nasty, always send mm (especially vs the ones who are convinced building the fb with 1vill is pro) vs russia and/or send a french vill (if small map) to bkherd so u can raid him easy/he will fb at home. that's some phish strategy right there
-->' the rage it brings/destabilize the player is totally worth spending 300 ress

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 04 May 2015, 17:25

It wasn't a rush and the problem wasn't defending it. Just French run out of resources while Russia has the map. And also Russia has best 3 unit combo as well as better eco as the game progresses.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 05 May 2015, 01:17

garja wrote:It wasn''t a rush and the problem wasn''t defending it. Just French run out of resources while Russia has the map. And also Russia has best 3 unit combo as well as better eco as the game progresses.

Doesn''t india win late age 2 vs Russia even if Russia has infinite hunts?

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