The case for Virginia Company in the "Greed" meta

[Aizamk]

Is AoE3 almost solved?

Will people soon realize that livestock pen 3v 700w fulling mills 700g is the best BO vs non rushing civs?

:O

[Goodspeed]

Fuck aiz you're killing me, now I have to implement livestock

[deleted_user0]

aiz knows nothing about livestock. aklak and i are the leading experts on cow booming. aiz is just a fraud

[Kaiserklein]

@Kaiser

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+100f is a big deal, and so is -1 vill from discovery until max manors. I like to age early consistently and I wasn't able to do that with the TP start. Also keep in mind a TP isn't as significant for Brit as it is for other civs. They get a lot of XP from building manors. I could be wrong though, I'll know for sure when I get a decent simulation going. I posted about this build first because it's simple to implement and easy to compare to 3v first. Also it works with food and gold starts too. But I have big plans when it comes to build order testing
The thing with TPs is you have to account for potential missed treasures and I have no idea how much that would be on average.

You have -1 less vils in early discovery but +3 vils not much later, and the extra xp on good TP maps more or less compensates this early weaker eco because you get 3 vils sooner (approx 50 seconds sooner on Arizona for example, which means +126 food). But I see what you mean yeah, especially the early TP being available only on 200w starts, and the lack of treasures/scouting due to the early TP.

[deleted_user]

I've done this straight VC build (no tp, no 3v) in multiplayer several times today and find that 700w 600w and 700g are all pretty much back to back to back and you can easily age immediately off the 700g with like 10 or 15 lbows in base yet, and you will have a ship ready for you in age 3.

With VC, I save ~900 wood and it just let's me have a much better infrastructure. 2 rax's and a stable going into age 3 with a shipment ready and ~ 40 vills is pretty dece. It's so easy to get amalgamation in transition to III and still be producing lbows and still have wood for vet lbow. 5v before 700g is just a time waster IMO. Versus a semi ff brits should try to get age 3 if they aren't going to be aggressive and just use their eco to hold any pressure until then.

[Goodspeed]

I've done this straight VC build (no tp, no 3v) in multiplayer several times today and find that 700w 600w and 700g are all pretty much back to back to back and you can easily age immediately off the 700g with like 10 or 15 lbows in base yet, and you will have a ship ready for you in age 3.

With VC, I save ~900 wood and it just let's me have a much better infrastructure. 2 rax's and a stable going into age 3 with a shipment ready and ~ 40 vills is pretty dece. It's so easy to get amalgamation in transition to III and still be producing lbows and still have wood for vet lbow. 5v before 700g is just a time waster IMO. Versus a semi ff brits should try to get age 3 if they aren't going to be aggressive and just use their eco to hold any pressure until then.

Yeah you're right, 5v is often overkill. At the same time I've found the 600w isn't really necessary either because your eco is so big you can easily support 2 rax production and still age with 700g if you just pause production a bit. I guess it's MU-dependent but yeah, I would agree 600w is the more solid choice. As you get comfortable with the build you may find your cursor moving on its own towards those 5 vills though, it's tempting to sneak in that little extra eco and it's surprisingly not that risky

Or even 700w 700g 600g for a musk huss/lb huss semi with the option to stay colo. I haven't tested that extensively yet, but I don't see how it could possibly be bad.

[Mimsy for President]

GS might be right. I know that sounds a little far-fetched but if people who only were used to aging up with the Confucian Academy switched to a super greedy FF with the Porcelain Tower, then why not this ?

[SoldieR]

How do you hit age 2 at the same time when you don't send 3 vil?

[Kaiserklein]

3 vils come when you already have 800f or almost afaik

[SoldieR]

So is this like a 16 pop age up with 3 vils, and a 13 pop age with VC?

Or 17 pop since it's talking with 300w..?

[Goodspeed]

Yes 14/17 iirc

Im meh. Seems good in theory but in practice I'm not really sure how good it really is in the "greed" meta at all, and even if it's specifically good in this greed meta that does not at all imply that people have to play greed blindly. You can scout, and if this build become the main then the greed meta against brits would specifically die out. I am not quite sure, but I think it's possible to determine what you are up against before you make crucial build order decisions.

I feel like you didn't read the last paragraph in the OP because you didn't address any of the points raised there. Even if you try to punish the build, in most match ups you are sacrificing more of your own economy than Brit has to sacrifice in order to hold your push. As Sircallen already mentioned, Brits are quite comfortable against colonial play.

Still not convinced.

Where do you think the flaw in my reasoning is, then?

Also this made me sad because you actually believe it to be true The meta, even in mirrors, is always changing. I'm pretty sure every mirror in the last half-year has evolved into something substantially different from what it was before.

The Brit mirror meta actually hasn't changed much in the past years. People have been building forward and making musks forever, and I don't blame them because that is the best way to play the mirror. As mentioned, VC isn't viable there.
But whether the mirror meta has been changing or not is beside the point that I was making in the OP. The point is that because top players rarely seem to play Brit outside the mirror, it wasn't worth it for them to explore boom options. A perfect example of why I, among others, pushed for civ-countering rules.

[momuuu]

Yes 14/17 iirc

Im meh. Seems good in theory but in practice I'm not really sure how good it really is in the "greed" meta at all, and even if it's specifically good in this greed meta that does not at all imply that people have to play greed blindly. You can scout, and if this build become the main then the greed meta against brits would specifically die out. I am not quite sure, but I think it's possible to determine what you are up against before you make crucial build order decisions.

I feel like you didn't read the last paragraph in the OP because you didn't address any of the points raised there. Even if you try to punish the build, in most match ups you are sacrificing more of your own economy than Brit has to sacrifice in order to hold your push. As Sircallen already mentioned, Brits are quite comfortable against colonial play.

You dont have to play colonial to try to punish such a build, surely. My main concern or issue with the build is that I have some troubles trying to come up with the right match up to use it in. Maybe its best against ports.

[Goodspeed]

Yes 14/17 iirc

Im meh. Seems good in theory but in practice I'm not really sure how good it really is in the "greed" meta at all, and even if it's specifically good in this greed meta that does not at all imply that people have to play greed blindly. You can scout, and if this build become the main then the greed meta against brits would specifically die out. I am not quite sure, but I think it's possible to determine what you are up against before you make crucial build order decisions.

I feel like you didn't read the last paragraph in the OP because you didn't address any of the points raised there. Even if you try to punish the build, in most match ups you are sacrificing more of your own economy than Brit has to sacrifice in order to hold your push. As Sircallen already mentioned, Brits are quite comfortable against colonial play.

You dont have to play colonial to try to punish such a build, surely.

That's just the thing though, this build is actually more comfortable against early fortress timings than the 3v build because the boom finishes early; against fortress play you can comfortably get max value out of VC by maxing manors before 6 min. Don't forget to lame walls if necessary.

[zoom]

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Yes 14/17 iirc

Im meh. Seems good in theory but in practice I'm not really sure how good it really is in the "greed" meta at all, and even if it's specifically good in this greed meta that does not at all imply that people have to play greed blindly. You can scout, and if this build become the main then the greed meta against brits would specifically die out. I am not quite sure, but I think it's possible to determine what you are up against before you make crucial build order decisions.

I feel like you didn't read the last paragraph in the OP because you didn't address any of the points raised there. Even if you try to punish the build, in most match ups you are sacrificing more of your own economy than Brit has to sacrifice in order to hold your push. As Sircallen already mentioned, Brits are quite comfortable against colonial play.

You dont have to play colonial to try to punish such a build, surely.

That's just the thing though, this build is actually more comfortable against early fortress timings than the 3v build because the boom finishes early; against fortress play you can comfortably get max value out of VC by maxing manors before 6 min. Don't forget to lame walls if necessary.

Well, it's more comfortable than the exact same build with 3v. That doesn't mean it's more comfortable than every build with 3v.

[deleted_user0]

Since were talking boom builds, all virg comp does really is saving you wood. The boom ends earlier, you have a few more vils at 8, no more vils at 10 and you are down 5-10 vils at 14.

If you wanna boom, you shoukd just open with 4 manors, on a 300w start all you need is a food tres of around 100f in total to still age at 3 min while with 200w all it does is making u age 1 vil later. I guarantee that the 10 min eco will be superior that way. And if you have decent res, you dont need pikes to hold a cav semi. Just wall with manors



That said, i like vc for semi ff or ff because you need the manor xp and pop space. And it gives u the sorely needed eco.

[zoom]

The problem with that is the late age-time which not only makes the build weaker against early pushes, but increases the likelihood of them as well.

[deleted_user]

all virg comp does really is saving you wood.

Yeah, 900 wood. From an age 1 shipment. Now you might say that it only takes ~9 min for 3v to gather that (with gangsaw), but this is what I think the most important part of vc is:

Allows you to skip 600w with the same amount of infrastructure (or more).

We can talk about max boom numbers and always being behind 3 vills all we want, but I think this comes down to something else. The vc boom is still a boom, whether you think it is better or worse than 3v, it's still better than almost all civs til 10 min or so.

I think the best part of vc is the ability to compete with early fortress timings. You can go 700w, 700g, and age with 2 rax down, build a stable in transition, and having built like 10 units in age 2, around 9:15.

I think with 3v you almost need to send 600w for the same infrastructure as bc and this slows down 700g and thus your fortress age quite a bit.

Even if you don't need to send 600w, max manors still finish later which means you can't transition vills back onto food as soon also slowing your fortress timing.

Idk, just my thoughts. Admittedly I haven't played much VC.

[deleted_user0]

no VC doesnt allow you to skip 600w, but actually it kinda works as an extra 600w shipment. it does allow you to skip 5v, but imo, 5v is often not needed as brits, specially not if you expect a timing.

that said, i never found that normal brits play has trouble with defending for a fortress timing on high hunt maps. the trouble lies more in the fact that, after they hold the fortress timing, they usually either are in position where they need to age or where they ran out of safe res. then they wont be able to remax enough for the 2nd wave, because they already used all their crates or unit shipments. i dont see how the VC build changes this.

The problem with that is the late age-time which not only makes the build weaker against early pushes, but increases the likelihood of them as well.

im not sure what you mean by early timing pushes, if you mean 8 minute timing pushes, then no, it doesnt. if you mean rushes, then yes thats true. but then you shouldnt have been booming in the first place. its really that simple. we were talking about boom builds, so i am assuming you are doing it in a situation where you can get away with it and not when you expect a 10/10 sepoy incoming...

[britishmusketeer]

I think the main thing about virginia company is the pop which is vital when executing a semi-ff since having 3 extra vills at like 15 mins is really not that big of a deal, but not having to chop wood for pop space is.

[macacoalbino]

The whole point is that compared to 3 vills you get an earlier timing (even if you get less eco overall), which is useful in the semi-ff meta.

@goodspeed

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It would be cool if you posted some recs. Did you do the build in the winter tourney?

[deleted_user]

no VC doesnt allow you to skip 600w, but actually it kinda works as an extra 600w shipment.

This doesn't make sense. If it acts as a 600w shipment, why can't it take the place of 600w...

[Goodspeed]

Well, it's more comfortable than the exact same build with 3v. That doesn't mean it's more comfortable than every build with 3v.

The only thing VC isn't more comfortable against than 3v is a rush, and I addressed that in the last paragraph of the OP.

Since were talking boom builds, all virg comp does really is saving you wood. The boom ends earlier, you have a few more vils at 8, no more vils at 10 and you are down 5-10 vils at 14.

How are you ever going to be down more than 3v?

VC saves you 900 wood, yes, which means your entire early game is much smoother. Your boom and infrastructure is done after 700w whereas the 3v build is still struggling to max manors even after 700w has been gathered. This translates to a bigger eco (and more xp) if the 3v build chooses not to boom as much, or if they do boom it translates to either more units or an earlier fortress time, which is a big deal. As the data shows, the 3v build if it maxes manors has a lot less resources to spend and will be vulnerable to timings, but even if you manage to age safely after a 3v build with max manors your age time is slow and your +3v take too long to make up for that. The decisive battle will happen way before they pay off. And if you build 3 less manors than the VC build which is conceding your eco advantage, the data shows you are still behind on res to spend. And an earlier fortress time is obviously huge, it can make the difference between having to send a military shipment or being able to sneak in that 1000w/g.

If you wanna boom, you shoukd just open with 4 manors, on a 300w start all you need is a food tres of around 100f in total to still age at 3 min while with 200w all it does is making u age 1 vil later. I guarantee that the 10 min eco will be superior that way. And if you have decent res, you dont need pikes to hold a cav semi. Just wall with manors

That doesn't sound very good. If you find 100f in tres you could even age at 2:20 if you don't randomly chop 200 wood in age1. Also you can't rely on 100f in tres...

It would be cool if you posted some recs. Did you do the build in the winter tourney?

Yeah, I did the semi-FF against Tibia's Germans, Hwoarangs Brits and mongo's China (which I lost due to lack of walls) and colonial play against Tibia's French. Basically I sent VC in every Brit game except the one on cascade. But I was out of practice and my execution is poor right now, so other than the basic build order those recs don't show much. You're better off simply trying it and seeing how it feels, you'll be pleasantly surprised I'm sure.

[zoom]

Well, it's more comfortable than the exact same build with 3v. That doesn't mean it's more comfortable than every build with 3v.

The only thing VC isn't more comfortable against than 3v is a rush, and I addressed that in the last paragraph of the OP.

Since were talking boom builds, all virg comp does really is saving you wood. The boom ends earlier, you have a few more vils at 8, no more vils at 10 and you are down 5-10 vils at 14.

How are you ever going to be down more than 3v?

VC saves you 900 wood, yes, which means your entire early game is much smoother. Your boom and infrastructure is done after 700w whereas the 3v build is still struggling to max manors even after 700w has been gathered. This translates to a bigger eco (and more xp) if the 3v build chooses not to boom as much, or if they do boom it translates to either more units or an earlier fortress time, which is a big deal. As the data shows, the 3v build if it maxes manors has a lot less resources to spend and will be vulnerable to timings, but even if you manage to age safely after a 3v build with max manors your age time is slow and your +3v take too long to make up for that. The decisive battle will happen way before they pay off. And if you build 3 less manors than the VC build which is conceding your eco advantage, the data shows you are still behind on res to spend. And an earlier fortress time is obviously huge, it can make the difference between having to send a military shipment or being able to sneak in that 1000w/g.

If you wanna boom, you shoukd just open with 4 manors, on a 300w start all you need is a food tres of around 100f in total to still age at 3 min while with 200w all it does is making u age 1 vil later. I guarantee that the 10 min eco will be superior that way. And if you have decent res, you dont need pikes to hold a cav semi. Just wall with manors

That doesn't sound very good. If you find 100f in tres you could even age at 2:20 if you don't randomly chop 200 wood in age1. Also you can't rely on 100f in tres...

It would be cool if you posted some recs. Did you do the build in the winter tourney?

Yeah, I did the semi-FF against Tibia's Germans, Hwoarangs Brits and mongo's China (which I lost due to lack of walls) and colonial play against Tibia's French. Basically I sent VC in every Brit game except the one on cascade. But I was out of practice and my execution is poor right now, so other than the basic build order those recs don't show much. You're better off simply trying it and seeing how it feels, you'll be pleasantly surprised I'm sure.

Oh that's right – I should actually read OP! I forgot haha...

Edit: That's fine and all, but how do you know VC is better off than 3v in those cases? To me it seems like 3v would still be better.

[deleted_user0]

no VC doesnt allow you to skip 600w, but actually it kinda works as an extra 600w shipment.

This doesn't make sense. If it acts as a 600w shipment, why can't it take the place of 600w...

well it can take the place of 600w when you play it the way aiz does, or the way i did vs kynesie. i sent VC and in that build, the VC card literally replaced the 600w card. all it did was save me a little bit of wood, and didnt have a huge impact on my eco or the game, it just made a tiny difference. however, both those styles send 3vils first and doesnt really make any early units.

if you dont 3v first but still need units, you simply just need the 600w to complete the 200pop manors AND spam bow pike. so the VC kinda works as a crate shipment in that case, but instead of giving you wood, it is saving you wood. you however still need 700+600w for your infrastructure. ofcourse,

[deleted_user0]

Well, it's more comfortable than the exact same build with 3v. That doesn't mean it's more comfortable than every build with 3v.

The only thing VC isn't more comfortable against than 3v is a rush, and I addressed that in the last paragraph of the OP.

Since were talking boom builds, all virg comp does really is saving you wood. The boom ends earlier, you have a few more vils at 8, no more vils at 10 and you are down 5-10 vils at 14.

How are you ever going to be down more than 3v?

VC saves you 900 wood, yes, which means your entire early game is much smoother. Your boom and infrastructure is done after 700w whereas the 3v build is still struggling to max manors even after 700w has been gathered. This translates to a bigger eco (and more xp) if the 3v build chooses not to boom as much, or if they do boom it translates to either more units or an earlier fortress time, which is a big deal. As the data shows, the 3v build if it maxes manors has a lot less resources to spend and will be vulnerable to timings, but even if you manage to age safely after a 3v build with max manors your age time is slow and your +3v take too long to make up for that. The decisive battle will happen way before they pay off. And if you build 3 less manors than the VC build which is conceding your eco advantage, the data shows you are still behind on res to spend. And an earlier fortress time is obviously huge, it can make the difference between having to send a military shipment or being able to sneak in that 1000w/g.

If you wanna boom, you shoukd just open with 4 manors, on a 300w start all you need is a food tres of around 100f in total to still age at 3 min while with 200w all it does is making u age 1 vil later. I guarantee that the 10 min eco will be superior that way. And if you have decent res, you dont need pikes to hold a cav semi. Just wall with manors

That doesn't sound very good. If you find 100f in tres you could even age at 2:20 if you don't randomly chop 200 wood in age1. Also you can't rely on 100f in tres...

It would be cool if you posted some recs. Did you do the build in the winter tourney?

Yeah, I did the semi-FF against Tibia's Germans, Hwoarangs Brits and mongo's China (which I lost due to lack of walls) and colonial play against Tibia's French. Basically I sent VC in every Brit game except the one on cascade. But I was out of practice and my execution is poor right now, so other than the basic build order those recs don't show much. You're better off simply trying it and seeing how it feels, you'll be pleasantly surprised I'm sure.

nah u cant age at 2.20 and there really isnt a need to, 2.30 is possible tho, and with 100f tres i meant you can age at 2.45 sorry. you can age 3.05 np with 4 manors if you have 300w start. aiz knows this. if you boom, then its better to go into the 90 sec trans with 5v more (compared to your vc build) than with being up 30 sec earlier. you are simply downplaying the early 3v shipment too much imo.

im not saying VC doesnt have merit, but imo its merit is NOT in booming. its merit is in making tech and timing based builds a bit easier.