The case for Virginia Company in the "Greed" meta

[momuuu]

I'd like to see some actual good data gathered. This dataset is both unclear and incomplete I feel.

[Goodspeed]

nah u cant age at 2.20 and there really isnt a need to, 2.30 is possible tho, and with 100f tres i meant you can age at 2.45 sorry. you can age 3.05 np with 4 manors if you have 300w start. aiz knows this. if you boom, then its better to go into the 90 sec trans with 5v more (compared to your vc build) than with being up 30 sec earlier. you are simply downplaying the early 3v shipment too much imo.

im not saying VC doesnt have merit, but imo its merit is NOT in booming. its merit is in making tech and timing based builds a bit easier.

Not a fan of aging slowly unless I find 100f in tres tbh. Maybe on maps like Arkansas. Again though, this build doesn't only work with 300w starts like the TP start and the build you just mentioned.
The merit is a smooth early game when booming. Obviously the merit is in booming because that's what the card improves, you don't save 900 wood and speed up your build if you don't boom. The comparison is based on a manor boom, but I agree the biggest merit is in being able to pull off faster tech builds with the same eco.

I'd like to see some actual good data gathered. This dataset is both unclear and incomplete I feel.

The only unclear part is that I haven't posted the source code to my program, but something tells me it wouldn't be of much use to you. If you want it I can post it, but I'm in the middle of rewriting it so it's already outdated. Incomplete, I disagree.
Where do you think the data is wrong, then?

[Pasi]

I have experienced that with a 300w start building a tp and sending 3 vil and then VC is a must in the moment! ..not only that the boom is much stronger than usual, you also grab a TP and don't allow other civs such as French/Russia/Ger to take over the whole TP route. Especially that last point is essential in the current meta.

Even with a 200w start gathering 135 extra wood might be worth it, I'm not certain about that, yet.

About skipping 3V: ...GS your calculations look fine. It just doesn't hold in practice. Don't ask me why, but it doesn't. Being 3V behind after minute 10 is just too big of a deal. However, with a 300w start building a tp and shipping 3v + VC is incredibly strong! (unfortunately still not good enough to stand a single chance against some other civs but whatever.. maybe next patch)

[Goodspeed]

I have experienced that with a 300w start building a tp and sending 3 vil and then VC is a must in the moment! ..not only that the boom is much stronger than usual, you also grab a TP and don't allow other civs such as French/Russia/Ger to take over the whole TP route. Especially that last point is essential in the current meta.

Even with a 200w start gathering 135 extra wood might be worth it, I'm not certain about that, yet.

About skipping 3V: ...GS your calculations look fine. It just doesn't hold in practice. Don't ask me why, but it doesn't. Being 3V behind after minute 10 is just too big of a deal. However, with a 300w start building a tp and shipping 3v + VC is incredibly strong! (unfortunately still not good enough to stand a single chance against some other civs but whatever.. maybe next patch)

I was going to ask you why but then you already answered with the next sentence
3v behind versus a 30 second faster build order is a total no-brainer in my book. Have you tested this at all?

Again, it works with all starts and not just the 300w start. People keep bringing up the TP build which may be strong or may not be, but it's not the point of this thread.

[Pasi]

I have experienced that with a 300w start building a tp and sending 3 vil and then VC is a must in the moment! ..not only that the boom is much stronger than usual, you also grab a TP and don't allow other civs such as French/Russia/Ger to take over the whole TP route. Especially that last point is essential in the current meta.

Even with a 200w start gathering 135 extra wood might be worth it, I'm not certain about that, yet.

About skipping 3V: ...GS your calculations look fine. It just doesn't hold in practice. Don't ask me why, but it doesn't. Being 3V behind after minute 10 is just too big of a deal. However, with a 300w start building a tp and shipping 3v + VC is incredibly strong! (unfortunately still not good enough to stand a single chance against some other civs but whatever.. maybe next patch)

I was going to ask you why but then you already answered with the next sentence
3v behind versus a 30 second faster build order is a total no-brainer in my book. Have you tested this at all?

Again, it works with all starts and not just the 300w start. People keep bringing up the TP build which may be strong or may not be, but it's not the point of this thread.

30 second faster in what terms? ..considering your build order, your first batch of units is out way slower than usual. this is not only bad against rushes (which you have excluded) but also against a semi ff. in fact I don't see a single matchup in which you want a slow 2 rax longbow/pike start. so tbh I only agree to the 30 second faster point to a certain extend.

ahhh and not to forget: since you age up with the 500f you lose the opportunity to secure like 1-2 hunts with the tower

[[Armag] diarouga]

I'd take 30sec faster everyday lol.
About the market, you have to invest 200 ressources to research the wood up (well 100f so let's say 175), which means that with every vills on wood it is worth when you get 18v.
So imo you should build the market just before you reach colonial and that way you can use the 500f for the wood upgrade, you spend 100w (=1v) to get 10% of like 20v which is totally worth.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I have experienced that with a 300w start building a tp and sending 3 vil and then VC is a must in the moment! ..not only that the boom is much stronger than usual, you also grab a TP and don't allow other civs such as French/Russia/Ger to take over the whole TP route. Especially that last point is essential in the current meta.

Even with a 200w start gathering 135 extra wood might be worth it, I'm not certain about that, yet.

About skipping 3V: ...GS your calculations look fine. It just doesn't hold in practice. Don't ask me why, but it doesn't. Being 3V behind after minute 10 is just too big of a deal. However, with a 300w start building a tp and shipping 3v + VC is incredibly strong! (unfortunately still not good enough to stand a single chance against some other civs but whatever.. maybe next patch)

I was going to ask you why but then you already answered with the next sentence
3v behind versus a 30 second faster build order is a total no-brainer in my book. Have you tested this at all?

Again, it works with all starts and not just the 300w start. People keep bringing up the TP build which may be strong or may not be, but it's not the point of this thread.

30 second faster in what terms? ..considering your build order, your first batch of units is out way slower than usual. this is not only bad against rushes (which you have excluded) but also against a semi ff. in fact I don't see a single matchup in which you want a slow 2 rax longbow/pike start. so tbh I only agree to the 30 second faster point to a certain extend.

No but you want to start with 1 rax and 5 pikes vs a semi cav in which case virginia is 30sec faster.
Btw, with virginia you can do 700w/5v and get 20 manors while you can't afford to do it with 3v 1st ie you have 2 less vills

[Goodspeed]

I have experienced that with a 300w start building a tp and sending 3 vil and then VC is a must in the moment! ..not only that the boom is much stronger than usual, you also grab a TP and don't allow other civs such as French/Russia/Ger to take over the whole TP route. Especially that last point is essential in the current meta.

Even with a 200w start gathering 135 extra wood might be worth it, I'm not certain about that, yet.

About skipping 3V: ...GS your calculations look fine. It just doesn't hold in practice. Don't ask me why, but it doesn't. Being 3V behind after minute 10 is just too big of a deal. However, with a 300w start building a tp and shipping 3v + VC is incredibly strong! (unfortunately still not good enough to stand a single chance against some other civs but whatever.. maybe next patch)

I was going to ask you why but then you already answered with the next sentence
3v behind versus a 30 second faster build order is a total no-brainer in my book. Have you tested this at all?

Again, it works with all starts and not just the 300w start. People keep bringing up the TP build which may be strong or may not be, but it's not the point of this thread.

30 second faster in what terms? ..considering your build order, your first batch of units is out way slower than usual. this is not only bad against rushes (which you have excluded) but also against a semi ff. in fact I don't see a single matchup in which you want a slow 2 rax longbow/pike start. so tbh I only agree to the 30 second faster point to a certain extend.

The lb production is just to show the difference in resources that both builds have at their disposal, though late double rax is not a bad build at all if you manage to age at 4:10. It's comparable to Japan's kami shrine boom into late double, but much faster.
If I'm interpreting your post correctly, you are arguing that you want units out at 6 min. Imo the only time you'd want that as Brits, considering you have the opportunity to boom, is against a rush, but again you can see that coming a mile away and adapt. Against semi-FFs or eco-focused colonial play you are totally fine delaying military for a faster boom, and that's when VC is worth it.

So imo you should build the market just before you reach colonial and that way you can use the 500f for the wood upgrade, you spend 100w (=1v) to get 10% of like 20v which is totally worth.

Yeah that does sound like a good market timing. That way you can have ST (almost) done when you start gathering food, too.

[zoom]

I think people in general are overestimating how much control the Outpost actually maintains.

[musketjr]

i don't think there are any maps on which this style of brit would be viable. they either have no hunts or other things you need access to in the middle. on manchuria for instance the only coin is in the middle of the map, so while you make 20 houses and ship 700c, he will age faster and be poking around your base while you run out of coin (if not hunts first). on the 5 tp map, you will do likewise for your part while he makes 5 tps and wins somewhat automatically afterwards. the saguenay map has no 2nd hunt, cascade has no hunts at all, etc. perhaps on kamchatka this could be playable.

[britishmusketeer]

i don't think there are any maps on which this style of brit would be viable. they either have no hunts or other things you need access to in the middle. on manchuria for instance the only coin is in the middle of the map, so while you make 20 houses and ship 700c, he will age faster and be poking around your base while you run out of coin (if not hunts first). on the 5 tp map, you will do likewise for your part while he makes 5 tps and wins somewhat automatically afterwards. the saguenay map has no 2nd hunt, cascade has no hunts at all, etc. perhaps on kamchatka this could be playable.

Although apparently you get more units by 8 min.

[musketjr]

hmm, well, as a general point the current meta with free tps seems inclined towards semis winning every mu, so i'm doubtful as to whether brit colonial is somehow strong when you preface it with VC, but who knows.

[[Armag] diarouga]

You don't need coin anyway.

[musketjr]

i guess not. the way the climate is going foodstuffs and raw materials may well usurp coins as currency.

[Goodspeed]

hmm, well, as a general point the current meta with free tps seems inclined towards semis winning every mu, so i'm doubtful as to whether brit colonial is somehow strong when you preface it with VC, but who knows.

Who said anything about colonial?
More units at 8 min can also mean a faster fortress time or the same fortress time with a better eco, or the same fortress time with more units to defend.

The gist of it is whenever you plan to boom (whether you stay colonial or go fortress afterwards isn't really relevant) it's worth it.

[Pasi]

Well then again you can just gather the 135 extra wood in age 1 and add a TP or not?

[godzillaking]

Very cool article. The graphs are very interesting. Seems like at about the 13-15 manor mark the VC becomes more efficient and pays off. Should be fun to try out. Although I'm sure my execution wont be the same.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Well then again you can just gather the 135 extra wood in age 1 and add a TP or not?

No you can't.
It will delay your 2nd age2 shipment a lot and it will slow your age up.

[mnogud]

aiz knows nothing about livestock. aklak and i are the leading experts on cow booming. aiz is just a fraud

the fastest imperial eh ? :p

[Jaeger]

Since were talking boom builds, all virg comp does really is saving you wood. The boom ends earlier, you have a few more vils at 8, no more vils at 10 and you are down 5-10 vils at 14.

If you wanna boom, you shoukd just open with 4 manors, on a 300w start all you need is a food tres of around 100f in total to still age at 3 min while with 200w all it does is making u age 1 vil later. I guarantee that the 10 min eco will be superior that way. And if you have decent res, you dont need pikes to hold a cav semi. Just wall with manors



That said, i like vc for semi ff or ff because you need the manor xp and pop space. And it gives u the sorely needed eco.

How can you be 5-10 vills down if all youre missing is 3v?

[deleted_user0]

cuz ur not sending 5/4 v

[momuuu]

The thing that is really missing is a comparison of this strat vs not booming, aswell as a generally more complete dataset with more points of measurement, aswell as information on the unspend resources. For example, it is completely possible that you get fewer longbow out with no vc because you get the raxes up later but have lots of unspent resources. Maybe the datapoints taken are particulary efficient for vc or 3 vills.

And again most importantly is a complete comparison of this build vs standard british play. How does booming with this compare to a mediocre boom style? At what point do vills break even and at what point does military break even. How is the resources gathered doing when you account for the fact that the manors are cheaper with both builds? Theres atm so much data missing than an argument based on experience is superior imo.

[Einfein]

Thanks for this post GS, it was a very interesting read.

[Goodspeed]

The thing that is really missing is a comparison of this strat vs not booming

The 2 are completely different builds which work in different situations. If you need units early you can't boom and if you don't need units you can. The boom will have a better eco and more units at x+ minutes while standard play will have a worse eco and more units at x- minutes. You apparently want to know what x is, it's definitely an interesting question which I will answer when I have the data to do so, but it's not relevant when it comes to the VC vs 3v discussion. That discussion only applies if you can afford to boom because if you can't 3v is always superior. Obviously if you don't need units early on, booming is the best choice (if you don't think so, I can't help you) and then the comparison becomes relevant.

aswell as a generally more complete dataset with more points of measurement

Which points of measurement would you like? I have a decent amount of flexibility given how easy it is for me to generate data. The reason I stopped at 8:20 is that the difference was clear by then and I (still) haven't implemented anything beyond 700w.

aswell as information on the unspend resources. For example, it is completely possible that you get fewer longbow out with no vc because you get the raxes up later but have lots of unspent resources. Maybe the datapoints taken are particulary efficient for vc or 3 vills.

Unspent res is zero at all snapshots taken. Sometimes there was 100 wood and 0 food (mismacro) in which case I counted +1 longbow.

How is the resources gathered doing when you account for the fact that the manors are cheaper with both builds?

Res gathered is always better for the 3v build because they have an early edge in vill count, but res gathered doesn't account for the 900 wood that was saved by VC. Any unspent res are immediately turned into longbows, so that is a great way of measuring how many res both builds have at their disposal.

Theres atm so much data missing than an argument based on experience is superior imo.

Most high-level players don't even have VC in their decks whereas I have tested this build and use it in almost every Brit game I play. So I am arguing based on experience more than most people here, it's just that arguments based on a mathematical simulation of the game are much more convincing. Besides, making recs with perfect vill micro is a tedious task.

[pecelot]

Still not convinced. In my opinion, the only time VC may be worth it is with Aizamk's variation, where on a 300w start you build a manor and TP and ship both 3v and VC in age 1.

Because most top level games these days are mirrors (although finally in the Winter tournament the rules prevented this), it is not worth it for top players to explore options beyond the auto-pilot standard build.

Also this made me sad because you actually believe it to be true The meta, even in mirrors, is always changing. I'm pretty sure every mirror in the last half-year has evolved into something substantially different from what it was before.

or when you go cree craftmanship victoria company full boom ff

Oh yeah that's genuinely my favourite strategy in AoE, the manors are so cheap then! I have to wait some time for the tech to research, but then I just spam houses everywhere, and afterwards usually click resign because I lose to a timing :c