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China fei123456
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14 Mar 2016, 13:38

I'm not quite sure if I should write this :( as my English presentation is just awkward. So these are only my own understandings of this civ in current meta.
I may edit this topic and add some new ideas later.

ESOC Patch changes
When the patch releases I thought Sioux is weaker than before. Iro and Otto are hardly nerfed, but in RE patch meta Sioux is not quite afraid of these two lame civs: Sioux < Iro but with proper raiding they still have chance, and with lame bow rider mass and evening star, they used to have a quite good performance vs Ottoman. So the nerf to Iro and Otto may be a nerf to Sioux relatively.
But if we don't consider the "relative" changes between Sioux and other civs, the changes to Sioux seems quite ok: bow rider with 220hp is still a bad-ass, and the buff to cetan bow gives Sioux better chance vs age 2 heavy infantry rush, which is the main way to beat Sioux before.

Cetan bow
Buffed cetan bow is not that weak as before, but compared to longbow (their cost is about the same) cetan is still a weird choice. They have 16 range only, annoying aim time, no buff cards, no auto upgrade. You can train some to defend a rush and they do well (even better than longbow, as Sioux doesn't have walls), but when you reach age 3 they become garbage immediately, while mass longbow is still a big threat in age 3. So in a normal semiff strategy, you train them only in cases that you will die without them.
But don't forget the warhut start. If you know your opponent will go heavy infantry (for examply Otto), or you want to rush your opponent (i usually do this vs Dutch or in Sioux mirror), a warhut start is quite available. But this is still a rarely used bo, as Sioux doesn't have a travois lol.

TP meta
Sioux needs to go age 3 so a tp is a must, that's all. Don't use sioux on no-tp maps. (or you can try a warhut start?)
And stagecoach. An upgraded tp is 2 wood/s which means 4 vills which is quite admirable, but you have to stop your opponent from killing them. It's not wise for Sioux to take a big fight in colonial, so Sioux seldom go tpboom directly. If your opponent go stagecoach, just age up and try to push back and take tps.
But there're still some situations in which Sioux can go tpboom and stagecoach. e.g. Your opponent is China (ff) or Japan (shrine boom). Or the maps is Mongolia or Yellow River (tp line is far away from the battlefields). In these cases 3 tp travois shipment is available.

Age up politican
Sioux used to go cavalry semiff in most of the cases, and with weaker bow riders in age 2, semiff seems to be the only choice. Thus, 400w into messenger (40s fast age up) becomes the most popular choice. But Sioux has another option: 12 bisons.
Some players say that fast age up is always better, but I dont agree with this. 12 bisons and 20% boost can give you a better eco, and with 7500 food your vills can work under tc instead of running around the map. "Control the map" is not always that easy: if you have more military units your vills can work anywhere you want ofc, but what will happen if you don't? And what will you do if the map is poor? Or there is an agra fort in the center of the map? Fast age up is always the safe choice, but it's not always the best:
------If your opponent is to give you a timing push (colonial timing or early fortress timing), go fast age up.
------If he is not, age up with bison.
------If you have enough food near your base and you're sure you can hurt your opponent a lot with a 1 minute earlier age up, age up fast.
------If the map is quite poor, try to age up with bison (but if your opponent is to push you, for example India, you have to age up fast. And then you lost because of no food. That's why India is quite lame before: the maps ARE poor!).
------If it's a no-tp map, or you have stayed in age 2 for some time, and can't send a shipment immediately when you reach fortress, age up with bison.
------If you go tpboom and stagecoach, age up fast.

Deck
QQ截图20160314192036.jpg
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Here are the main shipments you need in a game. And you can add a lot into them to reach the limit of 25:
You can use 15% hunting boost, 20% chopping boost in age 1.
You can send 7 clubs, 3 bears in age 2 to defend a rush (or to rush).
On tp maps you can use 3 tp travois to take the trading posts.
Some shipments (evening star, 10 pistoleros) are widely used to counter a musk rush. Though cetan bow are buffed now, you can still have them in your deck to give your opponent a surprise.
1000 food, 1000g shipment to buff axe riders, wakina rifles, rifle riders are good in age 3.
Warchief 10% attack aura, 18/16 wakina, 4 dog soldiers are available in age 4. (Is Sioux fi available? They have 1500f politican to call dog soldiers immediately, and they need 400w200g only to upgrade units. Dog soldier have auto upgrade. 18/16 wakina are great. Wish someone could test this.)
In a Sioux mirror you usually mass bow riders in age 2, so you need 600g, both cav upgrade, and even arsenal techs in teepee (new ways).
On water maps you can try to have 3 fishing boats, 3 privateers, 4 war canoes in your deck.
------The difference between 3 vills and 3 boats: 3 vills work faster, but 3 boats don't use land resources (food), and are 100% safe until your opponent sends caravel. So if your opponent is to rush you, you can send 3 boats instead.

Build orders
Now that bow riders are nerfed, semiff is the most available way to play sioux.
Age 1: send 3 vills (or 3 boats in a few cases), age up with 15p.
------Sioux has the best scout in age 1, so you can try to find the best treasure asap. With your warchief splash damage you can get 65gold(4 monkeys), 1 vil(5 coyotes), 1 cdb (4 black bears), 135xp (3 bears), 100xp/150f/125w/160xp/100w (2 polar bears), 205g (3 calibs), or even 225f (3 outlaw rifles) SUPER FAST with your warchief. And kill your opponent's hero with your pistolero/tomahawk! Kill the Indian brahmin! Kill the shaolin master! Kill the french scout! Kill'em all! :D
------And don't forget to grab all the livestocks around the map. And steal your opponent's treasure. It's the most dramatic moment to see "%^&* Sioux lamer" or "%^&* map hacker" on the screen.
--- --And keep those strong treasure guardians alive if possible. Pistoleros, outlaw riders, pirates can help you a lot in defending.
------In 1/3 cases (yeah if you're h2o it's 100%) you start with an extra wood crate, and it's quite good to have a tp or a market (and hunting dog) in discovery age. On maps like Himalayan, Tibet, Manchuria, try to get a 90w/85w asap and build a tp immediately. And on Great Plains, Cascade Range, High Plains, you can chop 50w for market and hunting dog.
------On maps with extra crates (Deccan), build market, buy wood to build tp, and go hunting dog.
------On Saguaney, if you start with a mill, find as many sheeps as you can (your opponent will have a livestock pen too), and if possible, don't forget the 100w 75g tech that can give you 10% boost in collecting any kind of food (even for fishing boats lol).

Age 1 to age 2: chop a lot.
On tp maps: you need a market, hunting dog, placer mine, and a tp. This is 425 wood in total. So you can try to get wood treasures as many as you can. Yeah if you already have a market or a tp in age 1, things become easier.
On no tp maps: you need a market, hunting dog, placer mine, a firepit, and 50 extra wood. 400+50=450=200(stable)+250(warhut).
Vs rush civs: a warhut is enough.
If there's only one tp: a stable and a warhut is good.

Age 2: send 4v, collect 400w crate, build a 2nd tp, and a stable. Train bow rider (or axe rider in some cases). Then scout and adapt.
------If your opponent is playing "normally", 4v-700g-700w, age up fast (or bison, if you're sure he won't push you during transition). You can do many things with 700w shipment: 1 warhut (or even 2 if you find that he will do a colonial timing), 1 firepit, 3rd tp, stagecoach, etc. And don't forget to leave 200w to upgrade bow riders.
With 2 tps you can have a shipment as soon as you reach age 3, and 3 dog soldiers 5+4 rifle riders 9 wakinas 5 axe riders will give your opponent a big doo-doo.
------And if he won't have units before 7:00 (China ff for example) and the map allows you to do a tpboom, 700w-4v-700g-fast age up. You can even use 200f 200w for stagecoach as soon as you reach age 2, and send 3tp travois or 700w. 4v-700w-700g-fast age up is also good.
------If your opponent is to do a colonial timing (French 700w 2 rax musk, etc), 4v-700w-700g (or unit shipments like 6 cetans). build a warhut, a firepit, and a few cetan bows to defend. Also, axe rider is available vs xbow/longbow, so don't just bow rider all the time. But if you have a good raiding skill, semiff is still better, as wakina >>> cetan.
Sioux is a versatile civ so you can also do something different. You can send 4v first, but send 4 axe riders 7 clubs 2 dog soldiers later to give your opponent constant pressure. This works with Dutch well. If you're playing with German and he go age 3, you can train some clubs (or send 7 clubs) to kill his tp, or even try to siege his houses and stable. Vs Port ff you can try to do a colonial timing to kill his 3rd tc and then go age 3. Anything is possible here.

Age 2 to age 3: raid and defend.
If your opponent attacks, use your firepit to train warriors to defend. Though Sioux doesn't have minutemen, those infinite warriors are quite useful. You should scout well, and start to dance before his army reach your base.
Try to kill his new trained units with your cav in half way, and attack from behind (gay confirmed).
Keep 10 vills in tc, and if possible, let a few vills work somewhere far away from tc. It's awkward to have 20+ vills in tc.
If you have 10+ bow riders, collect more gold, buy 200 wood, and upgrade them as soon as you reach age 3. If you have less bow riders, don't upgrade them.

Age 3: elite bow rider (or axe rider), wakina rifle, unit shipments, and big button!
This seems quite easy, but there're still some tips and experiences that you may not know.

------About the big button: this is a table in Bramboy's guide.
1d8b9bd8c496ef7fddfe4244fed80ba9.png
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Remember that big button=mameluke. Always use them if possible.
To a normal semiff, 14 min is usually when you decide to attack. So you can stop gathering gold at around 13:00 and put all the vills on food (so bison age up is quite useful here).
It takes 10 seconds to have your dog soldiers out, so click the big button at exactly 13:51! Attack, war dance, gg.
Many good players just don't know this. They think sioux is easy, they never practise them, so they use low hp axe riders as tanky units, or use big button at 13:40 to get 4 dog solders only. It's never easy to play a easy civ.
There're some situations in which you will use the big button earlier. For example you can do a 12 min timing with 3+4 dog soldiers vs Japan shrine boom. 1 extra dog soldier < 20 upgraded yumi.

------Firepit: quite useful in age 3. If you hadn't build it in age 2, build it now.
Have it in your control group. I usually use "7".
Remember the convert hotkeys: war dance "w", siege dance "v", revive warchief "j", train faster "f", get xp "x", train warriors "a".
So in a battle: 1z 2z 7w. You win the battle and siege: 7v. Hotkeys help you a lot.
You can also put 1 vill on firepit to get extra xp in early games (usually on no tp maps like Indochina, Indonesia, etc). 1 vill on firepit > 1 vill on resources in early game.
Siege dance can also buff your canoes, and your rifle riders with siege dance can kill warships quite fast (if he is stupid enough).

------You can also send 1000w to boom with another tc in early or middle age 3, and take control of the map. But remember that you still have to win the game with a timing push. Don't just boom boom boom and try to overboom him, you don't have factories, refregeration, royal mint, etc.
------If you have 30+ cavs, cav combat >unit shipment.
------You don't need 10+ rifle riders in most cases. They have insane high dps vs heavy infantry, but they're quite expensive, low-hp, and countered by dragoons. They are used as a great support to your army.
------Rifle riders can kill cannons. They even kill ships (if your opponent is simple and naive).

Different build orders
Warhut start
I found it a decent choice in Sioux mirror. You can also do this vs Dutch, Japan, Aztec, etc.
Buffed cetan bow with warchief aura has 100 hp 15 attack and 5.2 speed, which is better than 110 food aenna now. And clubs have 5.75 speed with aura, thus can be used as rodeleros.
Age up 15p, chop 250w and build front warhut with 3 vills. Keep 3 vills chopping.
When you reach age 2, collect 400w, train bow/club, send shipments, attack!
This is quite available in a Sioux mirror, especially in esoc patch. See blackstar_op vs cohenski in spring championship.
------And if you're the one who start stable and get rushed, usually send 6 cetan first.
You can also rush Dutch/Japan or even Ottoman with this. You won't kill his tc directly, but at least he cannot boom 200 pop shrines/6 banks/4 tps with silk road freely. And then you can send 700w 700g to convert into axe rider bow rider, or age up.
Warhut start doesn't mean you should always rush. You can also send 4v/700w to go tpboom, train a few cetan to raid, a few clubs to kill his tp/shrines, and age up then. It's a versatile playstyle.

Vs front base rush (Otto 15 jani 3 hussar, India 10/10, etc)
Chop for a warhut in front of your tc during transition, then collect food and gold.
Collect 400w asap, build a stable behind your base with 3-4 vills, send 6 cetan bow first, and train 5 bows in the warhut.
You can have about 3-4 bow riders and 11 cetans in the first batch. Put 10 vills in tc, try to hit and run with warchief aura.
After that you can send more units (4 axe riders, 2 dog soldiers) if he keeps rushing. Or you can 700w/4v/700g to build tp, firepit, market, raid, age up. And scout. If he is not going to all-in rush, you shouldn't send 6 cetan first.
This also works vs Aztec rush. But don't do this vs Russia! Strelet>>>cetan. You can send 4 axe riders, train 5 bow riders, and try to defend with tc and warhut fire.

Bow rider spam (in mirror)
Build 2 stables instead of 1 stable 1 tp. Send 700g first and try to have 8+ bow riders out in the first batch. Then 4v, then adapt.
However, the popular 4v 700g 600g is not the best build order imo. If you send 4v first you can only have about 5 bow riders in the first batch, and with 700g 600g sended, you'll never have a chance to age up.
I'm trying to use 700w in mirror recently. Build a warhut and a stable, send 4v first, then 700w (cetan, 2nd tp, firepit, etc)/700g/7 clubs for a bow rider + cetan + club timing, or 700w/700g/600g-fast age up-9 wakina, train a few cetan to defend and go age 3.

Water lame
I don't exactly know how to deal with this. but there're some tips for you:
------3 privateers are good in early age 2. As 3 privateers> 3 caravels > 2 caravels, you can give your opponent a big trouble early on. But still, I won't try to finish the game in colonial, as your opponent will build towers and send ship upgrades.
------Don't send 4 war canoes and hope they can dominate the water as a frigate. This shipment is only useful when you already take full control of the land.
------Always fight on land, until you killed his land units, and all the land buildings far away from the shore.
------Send 1000w first to boom from 2 tc or even 3 tc is a good choice.
------Don't fight with his units near the shore. If you have some rifle riders you can try to kill his caravels fast if your opponent ignores this, but never try to fight vs a frigate.
------Canoes are very cheap. But if you're in age 3 and you have resources, war canoes are the better choice.
------Don't play with British on these maps.

About the balance upgrade
What do sioux need in next patch? Here're some of my ideas:
------Cetan bow is still not strong. But anyway sioux is a cav civ so....ok.
------Why should axe rider have 0.75* ranged cav?
------If Sioux have 5+4 vills I'd be happy. Also Iro and Aztec have 5+4 vills too.
------Better base defence. Sioux has neither minutemen nor walls which is quite annoying. Teepee should have more HP and some attack (like advance tp).
------1000g shipment give wakina 20 range instead of 17 HP.
------Healers cost. Not only for Sioux. Aztec war priest cost 200g each, but why should priest/voodoo doctors cost 200g too?
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
----diarouga
Greece tedere12
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14 Mar 2016, 13:45

nice guide, I also put 1000f into my deck and sometimes go 3v 4v 700g 700w 1000f unit shipment and build 2 war huts usually vs french or dutch semi
#FreeTheCheese
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14 Mar 2016, 14:03

tedere12 wrote:nice guide, I also put 1000f into my deck and sometimes go 3v 4v 700g 700w 1000f unit shipment and build 2 war huts usually vs french or dutch semi

1000f is such a bad shipment
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14 Mar 2016, 14:07

KINGofOsmane wrote:
tedere12 wrote:nice guide, I also put 1000f into my deck and sometimes go 3v 4v 700g 700w 1000f unit shipment and build 2 war huts usually vs french or dutch semi

1000f is such a bad shipment

i have it in my deck. yeah 1000f is not a good shipment, but sioux doesn't have 1000g. also, on some poor maps you can send this shipment to have 1500f for the big button to end the game. (or can i go industrial with this?) but sending 1000f first may not be good.
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
----diarouga
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14 Mar 2016, 14:51

nice guide! I think 1kf is useful for getting dog soldiers since having to stack 1.5kf is awkward.
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Italy Garja
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14 Mar 2016, 14:53

I would 2tp stagecoach as Sioux on ESOC whenever I can, basically always.
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14 Mar 2016, 15:18

britishmusketeer wrote:nice guide! I think 1kf is useful for getting dog soldiers since having to stack 1.5kf is awkward.

nah 1000f is super bad lol
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14 Mar 2016, 15:43

Garja wrote:I would 2tp stagecoach as Sioux on ESOC whenever I can, basically always.

building tp is easy, while defending them is not. i dont think sioux should should take part in an unnecessary conflict outside the base in colonial.
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
----diarouga
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14 Mar 2016, 16:02

With 4 or more unit shipments you should be able to hold tps
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14 Mar 2016, 16:13

I think Sioux are very much underrated on water. Much like Tempoo Reforms is overrated.
sudmakmak wrote:This patch Keshik don't have buff anti cavalry = noob patch2.0
and don't have nerf hard japan = noob patch2.0
because all more noob player at this patch = noob logic.
or they maybe have boyfriend.(japanese boyfriend fuck your ass them)
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14 Mar 2016, 17:22

Nice guide, this brings joy to my heart :) thank you so much ! Maybe the 1st true guide I've read about the Sioux.
Thanks for the "big button=mameluke" tip, and the build orders I didnt know :)
Your army is so small and quaint. It almost seems a pity to wreck it.
- Napoleon

:hmm: http://imgur.com/a/liXry
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14 Mar 2016, 18:47

KINGofOsmane wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:nice guide! I think 1kf is useful for getting dog soldiers since having to stack 1.5kf is awkward.

nah 1000f is super bad lol

consider that when you are getting dogs you will have sent your best shipments already, so you first comparing it to say 4 rifles. Then there is the fact that it is 1k safe food exactly when you need it, and then there is the fact that it saves you from stacking which makes you vulnerable. I would't ever send it as any other civs and i wouldn't even usually send it as sioux but i think it has a niche use.
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14 Mar 2016, 19:04

P i k i l i c wrote:Maybe the 1st true guide I've read about the Sioux.

I made this guide in June 2015, but it's outdated and you shouldn't follow it.

1k food is a great shipment late fortress. Remember you don't have royal mint/eco theory/refrigeration so you need to look for other things to send.
The problem with Sioux on water is that their eco is so limited. I think they can still win vs water with a pressure build + ageup + mass canoes timing, or with 3 tc boom followed up by a canoe timing. The siege dance also boosts the damage output of your canoes which is something very few people are aware of. You absolutely need stagecoach tps for this to work, or it's too slow. Sioux also has a 500f 200c tech at the dock which boosts canoe attack by 25%, a 3 privateer card in age II for 500c (great card), and a card which decreases canoe cost by 25%, which is ok.
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15 Mar 2016, 01:32

4 rifle riders and cavalry combat are better than 1000 food indeed. but sioux doesnt have 10 better shipments than 1000 food in fortress.
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
----diarouga
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15 Mar 2016, 01:34

Thanks a lot for the guide! Has it been added to the strategy wall yet?

I can try to do it now but I might fail coz Im on mobile.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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15 Mar 2016, 02:13

4 RF is actually rather useless most of times. It is just like a 4 goon card minus the fact that they get countered by goons.
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15 Mar 2016, 03:04

Garja wrote:4 RF is actually rather useless most of times. It is just like a 4 goon card minus the fact that they get countered by goons.

4 goons = 720 resources. 4 rifle riders = 880 resources. And sioux has worth eco than euro civs.
Rifle riders are used as musket killer. 1 rifle rider with cav combat > 3 skirmishers in killing muskets. If he doesn't train musk/ashigaru/dopple you just don't send this.
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
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15 Mar 2016, 03:14

cool guide.

Does it say in here to never train a rifle rider? I think that you should never make them, only send the two shipments. From glancing through the guide i saw a lot of the major points I would mention covered, this one I know I am alone in my view on so i thought I would mention it :D
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15 Mar 2016, 03:43

_H2O wrote:cool guide.

Does it say in here to never train a rifle rider? I think that you should never make them, only send the two shipments. From glancing through the guide i saw a lot of the major points I would mention covered, this one I know I am alone in my view on so i thought I would mention it :D

"------You don't need 10+ rifle riders in most cases. They have insane high dps vs heavy infantry, but they're quite expensive, low-hp, and countered by dragoons. They are used as a great support to your army."
but still we wanna see your opinion about this civ :D
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
----diarouga
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15 Mar 2016, 04:11

Couprider wrote:
Garja wrote:4 RF is actually rather useless most of times. It is just like a 4 goon card minus the fact that they get countered by goons.

4 goons = 720 resources. 4 rifle riders = 880 resources. And sioux has worth eco than euro civs.
Rifle riders are used as musket killer. 1 rifle rider with cav combat > 3 skirmishers in killing muskets. If he doesn't train musk/ashigaru/dopple you just don't send this.

Ye the point is that it takes a slot in your deck. I'd rather have 1000f to start a 3 TC boom or just to call dogs. 1000f can actually be seen as 4 dogs at 15 mins.
4 RR is just for the straight ff imo, because that's the only case where it makes sense to go unit-unit-unit-unit.
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15 Mar 2016, 04:33

Garja wrote:
Couprider wrote:
Garja wrote:4 RF is actually rather useless most of times. It is just like a 4 goon card minus the fact that they get countered by goons.

4 goons = 720 resources. 4 rifle riders = 880 resources. And sioux has worth eco than euro civs.
Rifle riders are used as musket killer. 1 rifle rider with cav combat > 3 skirmishers in killing muskets. If he doesn't train musk/ashigaru/dopple you just don't send this.

Ye the point is that it takes a slot in your deck. I'd rather have 1000f to start a 3 TC boom or just to call dogs. 1000f can actually be seen as 4 dogs at 15 mins.
4 RR is just for the straight ff imo, because that's the only case where it makes sense to go unit-unit-unit-unit.

i have both of them in my deck
also a semiff with 2 tps can support a unit unit unit pressure.
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
----diarouga
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15 Mar 2016, 04:50

Never thought of 1k food that way though I do like the card on suiox. I think because rifle riders are way over priced (read not a good unit per cost) but the shipments give good numbers of them (880 res for a second goon shipment is great) they are worth shipping but not training. I can't remember the last time I trained a rifle rider.
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15 Mar 2016, 04:56

_H2O wrote:Never thought of 1k food that way though I do like the card on suiox. I think because rifle riders are way over priced (read not a good unit per cost) but the shipments give good numbers of them (880 res for a second goon shipment is great) they are worth shipping but not training. I can't remember the last time I trained a rifle rider.

rifle rider has tons of buffs (30% hp/attack, 20% attack in plantation, 10% hp in mill, 10% attack and +2 range in teepee, 20% attack shipment, 37% aura attack with warchief and firepit), and becomes a killing machine in late games.
but sioux don't have a late game lol.
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
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Norway iwillspankyou
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15 Mar 2016, 14:52

Thx alot couprider. I will give your guide a serious read. I also like your thoughts how to give sioux a needed buff ;)
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Netherlands Jerom
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16 Mar 2016, 01:04

Couprider wrote:
Garja wrote:4 RF is actually rather useless most of times. It is just like a 4 goon card minus the fact that they get countered by goons.

4 goons = 720 resources. 4 rifle riders = 880 resources. And sioux has worth eco than euro civs.
Rifle riders are used as musket killer. 1 rifle rider with cav combat > 3 skirmishers in killing muskets. If he doesn't train musk/ashigaru/dopple you just don't send this.

What matters is if 4 rifle riders is substantially better than 4 goons. I doubt it personally. The rifle rider shipment, especially the 5 RR one, are decent value for what you get. Costwise they are pretty great but RR are simply too expensive I believe. That is a detail in this awesome guide though.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy

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