Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Which is better early colonial?

Xbow
14
30%
Skirm
33
70%
 
Total votes: 47

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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by _venox_ »

But the 3 cards you have to invest for the skirms could also net you an age up where you have access to better skirmisher automatically and veteran units and 2 falconets and better cards. The skirmisher are only a viable option in my opinion if you want to keep constant pressure and skirmishers are the best option you can invest your cards into.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by Garja »

Yep with French is often better to just age up. They have quite an easy time doing that. But sometimes you can't take that risk and if you get stuck in colonial having skirms might be very useful.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by fei123456 »

age2 skirm is god. no doubt.
if dutch has age2 musk it will become a top civ.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by _venox_ »

It's not like India already has goons skirmishers and musketeers coupled with nice map control stomping elephants trickles a nice boom and very strong upgrades, but dutch with musketeers would just solve their pike problem but not their low exp from banks and their limited boom potential after 4 banks and banks not profiting from market upgrades... But you're right they'd reach fortress most of the times I guess' but musketeers costing much food means that they can't sit in their base for that long anymore.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by cowhax »

The problem with playing Dutch is wanting to make all your banks as fast as possible, but in reality this is very careless. It's like investing 100% into tech and no units. You just don't do it. You shouldn't make more than 2 banks in age 2 in my opinion, unless it's long game. 700 gold is a way better card than building a 3rd bank. But this is all aside the point.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by _venox_ »

2 banks only, really? You want to reach fortress without damaging your economy yourself. And you're comparing a card to building a bank (no card) since if you go 2 banks total then you send the bank wagon first, so you should compare the 700c to the 700w of which the wood is of greater value' only when you desperately need to age up the coin is better.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by cowhax »

because people are going to want to damage your eco no matter how many banks you've built or resources you've sent. They're going to do damage if you have to garrison all vills in your TC because you went 100% boom without even a pikeman.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by _venox_ »

And you want to age up safely which together with the aim of your opponent creates the thing called game. They either win the battle early on, punish you when you hit fortress or win with superior economy or equal economy and superior units. I don't see where having a worse economy and same or worse units will win for dutch.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by glorious_ »

cowhax wrote:because people are going to want to damage your eco no matter how many banks you''ve built or resources you''ve sent. They''re going to do damage if you have to garrison all vills in your TC because you went 100% boom without even a pikeman.
agree with that I think 1 bank up and marctplaces upgrade are worth much more than 3 banks asap. 3 banks = 700 food and 700 wood. Marctplace upgrades are 175 gold, 450 wood and 200 food which is imo more valuable ( and u dont have to take each asap).
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by glorious_ »

skyrunner wrote:
cowhax wrote:because people are going to want to damage your eco no matter how many banks youve built or resources youve sent. Theyre going to do damage if you have to garrison all vills in your TC because you went 100% boom without even a pikeman.
agree with that I think 1 bank up and marctplaces upgrade are worth much more than 3 banks asap. 3 banks = 700 food and 700 wood. Marctplace upgrades are 175 gold, 450 wood and 200 food which is imo more valuable ( and u dont have to take each asap).
* sorry talking about 1 bank age 1 and 2 banks age 2 so its actually 1050 food and wood :D
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by Garja »

cowhax wrote:The problem with playing Dutch is wanting to make all your banks as fast as possible, but in reality this is very careless. It''s like investing 100% into tech and no units. You just don''t do it. You shouldn''t make more than 2 banks in age 2 in my opinion, unless it''s long game. 700 gold is a way better card than building a 3rd bank. But this is all aside the point.
But then again you don''t have much clue of what you''re saying here. Sorry, just a fact.

And yes Dutch would be very good if not simply too good with musketeers.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by cowhax »

garja wrote:
cowhax wrote:The problem with playing Dutch is wanting to make all your banks as fast as possible, but in reality this is very careless. Its like investing 100% into tech and no units. You just dont do it. You shouldnt make more than 2 banks in age 2 in my opinion, unless its long game. 700 gold is a way better card than building a 3rd bank. But this is all aside the point.
But then again you dont have much clue of what youre saying here. Sorry, just a fact.

And yes Dutch would be very good if not simply too good with musketeers.
Typical "greater than thou" arrogance. Isnt this thread about age 2 skirms? You cant make age 2 skirms and make more than 2 banks in age 2. Sorry, just a fact.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by _venox_ »

LOLOLOL if age 2 skirms then no more than 2 banks just lol.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by Garja »

cowhax wrote:
garja wrote:But then again you dont have much clue of what youre saying here. Sorry, just a fact.

And yes Dutch would be very good if not simply too good with musketeers.
Typical "greater than thou" arrogance. Isnt this thread about age 2 skirms? You cant make age 2 skirms and make more than 2 banks in age 2. Sorry, just a fact.
Sigh. You in fact do not have a clue and Im trying to be as less rude as possible. You basically miss 8 years if Dutch development but you voice against it loud. Talking about arrogance.

Anyway, Ill try to explain it briefily, tho Id very likely skip this part.
You can do skirms or w/e with more than 2 banks. In particular, with Dutch you normally build 1 bank in transition and 1 bank with your first card (bank wagon or 700w).
Then depending on several factors you build your military building either from 400w, 700w after 3rd bank or 700w before 3rd bank. Depending on cirucumstances you then send 8pikes or 3huss or 700f or 600w. With 600w youre gonna make the 4th bank and then youre likely aging.

Now, given that playing Dutch is already somehow viable without musketeers, unlocking musks for them would mean having standard age2 play but with above par eco (4 banks at 6-7 minutes is more eco than 90% of booms) and also super smooth transition to 3rd. Not to mention that with their 4.10 age up at they could easily do some OP aggressive semi-ff.


Ah and 700g is exactly the card that you dont want as Dutch. 700f is better for them.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by Jaeger »

garja wrote:
cowhax wrote:Typical "greater than thou" arrogance. Isnt this thread about age 2 skirms? You cant make age 2 skirms and make more than 2 banks in age 2. Sorry, just a fact.
Sigh. You in fact do not have a clue and Im trying to be as less rude as possible. You basically miss 8 years if Dutch development but you voice against it loud. Talking about arrogance.

Anyway, Ill try to explain it briefily, tho Id very likely skip this part.
You can do skirms or w/e with more than 2 banks. In particular, with Dutch you normally build 1 bank in transition and 1 bank with your first card (bank wagon or 700w).
Then depending on several factors you build your military building either from 400w, 700w after 3rd bank or 700w before 3rd bank. Depending on cirucumstances you then send 8pikes or 3huss or 700f or 600w. With 600w youre gonna make the 4th bank and then youre likely aging.

Now, given that playing Dutch is already somehow viable without musketeers, unlocking musks for them would mean having standard age2 play but with above par eco (4 banks at 6-7 minutes is more eco than 90% of booms) and also super smooth transition to 3rd. Not to mention that with their 4.10 age up at they could easily do some OP aggressive semi-ff.


Ah and 700g is exactly the card that you dont want as Dutch. 700f is better for them.

Hm dont you think it can be viable to age up sometimes with 2 banks tho? Like for example if aztec does the 700w>'units build and you get a good fight, you realize if you send 700f or gold fast you can get to fortress before they can remass, but building another bank might be too slow. Then you can supplement your lack of a bank with 1k w/f/g if youre not pressured and shouldve made a bank before aging, or make bank in transition, or something like that.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by Garja »

2 banks wont be enough eco. Besides that you won't get a good fight vs aztecs. Especially if you start losing buildings and you have to replace them.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by benj89 »

always age with 3 bank+ unless you got pressured and have no choice (situation ovi mentioned). if no 4th bank before 10min that's just wrong.
with perfect macro you can still manage to age up around 7.50 with 4 bank (without 700f) btw
and talking abt bank and skirms, bank>'market ups (especially in mirror where bank don't get destroyed, its more a vill press than anything else) and the one who win in dutch mirror will most likely be the one who manage to make more banks, mostly because the wood gathering will be hard to get after the 700w ship. this one has to be used for banks, not market ups
I used to like 1K gold for some ruyt canon strat vs spain, which doesn't work if the spain play properly anyway
and bank wagon shouldn't be used unless cav start imo and still i wouldn't use it at least not early
you might want consider 1000f tho, some people like it to keep the same macro and still add huss age since huss ruyt skirm >' ruyt skirm
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by _venox_ »

In dutch mirror sure huss skirm ruyter wins vs skirm ruyter in theory, but in the game the enemy will be able to mass a ton of skirm/ruyter early fort which kind of makes going hussar redundant, since they already have a big skirm ruyter mass which makes hussars still ok but too expensive to lose. Skirm ruyter + cav and inf ups imo beat huss skirm ruyter early and mid fort, later on you can go for some hussars.
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by benj89 »

ruyt skirm effective in mass. but you shouldn't wait your opponent to mass until you press him. so in a normal gameplay, u make 10 huss early and they are very effective. and you don't have cav + inf ups early fort anyway, what are you saying
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by Garja »

700w first card is quite an optimistic way to play dutch on tad
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by benj89 »

your prob right my tad exp with dutch is very limited, mostly played them in team there
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Early colonial skirms vs xbows?

Post by cowhax »

@Garja it's arrogant to think there isn't more than 1 way to play Dutch, or that Dutch should be played. That's all I mean. I think building a TP with Dutch can be worthwhile also.

Yes Dutch has a weak age 2, but how long does it take for 1 bank to accumulate the same gold as a 700 gold shipment? It takes about 4 and a half minutes. So a bank costs 700 total resources in food and wood, and takes 4 and half minutes for it to essentially pay itself off. Considering that, I don't see sending 700 wood to build banks as a very effective boom option. Anyway, again, this isn't a Dutch discussion thread, and the Dutch economy is just weird.

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