Tip of the Day — how to prevent a forward base

[pecelot]

If you expect your opponent (-s) to rush, you can disturb their plans already in the Discovery Age or just at the beginning of the Colonial. From what I've seen, there are three ways to prevent a forward base from coming into being:

1. Call Minutemen — it's one of the most effective ones I'd say if it's not scouted. MM one-shot a villager, so they can take out the whole forward base crew in just 2/3/4 volleys (depending on the number of vills sent, ofc). It's pretty handy against sush civs like Otto or Russia, when you know they'll send some settlers forward. The most important thing for you is to make sure they do that by scouting it and gather the necessary resources. Coin treasures help a lot, as you need 150c and 150f — food shouldn't be a problem, however, as you can leave your vills on hunts for a little bit longer after clicking to the Colonial Age. Try to snare the vills with your explorer, so that they won't build a FB before your MM arrive (especially blockhouse, in which vills can garrison). It's easier with nations which have more than one starting explorer-type unit, so French (Native Scout), Dutch (Envoy) or Spanish (Dog). If successful, it can become a game-deciding move, since your enemy may not only lose quite a few vills, but also may not build his FB. It's a risky move, though, because you can lose 300 res and a potential to call Minutemen later, who may be very useful when dealing with rushes.

2. Get native warrior treasures — it's pretty similar to the first method in the way that your task is to kill opponent's vills before they manage to build a forward rax/stable/blockhouse/artillery foundry. You can do that by getting as many native warrior treasures placed on the map as possible. The best one out there is certainly an Iroquois Tomahawk with high base damage. A Cherokee Rifleman is also pretty handy, a Nootka Clubman or an Inca Huaminca are a bit worse, since they deal melee damage — it takes longer to kill even a single vill, who has 20% melee resist in addition. Make sure to call every unit possible there, so aforementioned Explorers, Native Scouts, Dogs and Envoys. It doesn't cost you that much, unlike calling the Minutemen (300 resources), and you can kill enemy's vills or even prevent the whole forward base. Worth trying if possible (of course depending on the treasures, but on certain maps there usually are some of them guaranteed, like on Arkansas — an Iroquois Tomahawk)!

3. Disturb an Agra Fort placement — on certain maps there is not a lot of space for an Agra Fort, like on Sonora, Colorado or Mendocino. There are two ways to prevent it from being built:
a) build wall segments in the most obvious spots, where the Agra is likely to be placed;
b) position your explorer-type units there to do the same effect.
That way your opponent will not be able to place the Agra down. You can try to use this method against other civs, but it's especially nice against India since their wonder is big and the longer you delay it, the better. Remember to scout it properly!

4. Siege unfinished buildings — as some of you may have not known, when you siege a building that is being constructed, you deal 4 times as much damage. If you see then that your opponent places a FB, you can start sieging it with your Explorer and native warriors (Nootka Clubman and Inca Huaminca especially useful here!), so that when your army comes you will have an easier job to finish destroying it.

Watch out sometimes, thought, as some of the aforementioned ways are considered lame... But I'll leave the judgement for you!

[BrookG]

I haven't considered MM, nice! As dutch against russia, for example, it isn't hard to find possible fb. The problem is envoy can't siege. I tried to send 8 pikes as first age 2 shipment and it catches them off-guard, but still it's risky

[pecelot]

It's still a nice way to prevent it, sending 8 pikes. The Envoy can snare vills, and above all he gives you the necessary LOS, while your explorer may get a coin or native warrior treasure.
If you play in team, you can send TEAM 3 Envoys in age 1 to kill the vills

[LordCharlie_131]

Sending MM to kill forward vills is the most annoying stuff in the game. MM arent supposed to be so aggressive and should have a negative multiplier vs vills. Veni says u should protect your Forward vills with your Scouts but against 5 minuteman its sometimes not enough.

[pecelot]

I thought of exactly the same to be honest, but as of right now they are what they are, and if your opponent lames Otto or Iro, you may „lame" him as well a little bit with MM.
And you mean 6 Minutemen, right?

[LordCharlie_131]

ofc.
It hurts russia as well and playing russia isnt that lame. tbh partly because of that i often switch from a more classic forward russia rush to a more timing push oriented Play.

[pecelot]

Well, there are quite a few ways to defend against such a Minutemen pop. You can scout it and snare with your explorer a little bit, you can hide your FB or just send more vills forward to put it down sooner.

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's gay, don't do it.

[evilcheadar]

It's gay, don't do it.

Forward bases are gay

[momuuu]

It's still a nice way to prevent it, sending 8 pikes. The Envoy can snare vills, and above all he gives you the necessary LOS, while your explorer may get a coin or native warrior treasure.
If you play in team, you can send TEAM 3 Envoys in age 1 to kill the vills

Envoy doesnt snare actually.

[Kaiserklein]

Tbh all units you can get in age 1 should have a multiplier vs vils

[noissance]

Building walls and towers around enemy fb is the way to go.

[momuuu]

Btw, the inca huminca is actually the best native you can get. I once killed a TP with it when I got one as one of my first treasures.

[pecelot]

Envoy doesnt snare actually.

Oh, I'm sorry then, I don't really play Dutch xD

Building walls and towers around enemy fb is the way to go.

Yeah, that can be a solution, too, but well, lame...

[Papist]

Sending MM to kill forward vills is the most annoying stuff in the game. MM arent supposed to be so aggressive and should have a negative multiplier vs vills. Veni says u should protect your Forward vills with your Scouts but against 5 minuteman its sometimes not enough.

If you are building your base so far forward that sending MM to stop it from going up is even an option, then you deserve to lose vils.

[Papist]

Tbh all units you can get in age 1 should have a multiplier vs vils

You might as well make all the unit treasures native scouts then. Because that's all they'll be good for. Seriously, why do people want to nerf anything that interferes with their "cookie cutter" builds?

[momuuu]

Tbh all units you can get in age 1 should have a multiplier vs vils

You might as well make all the unit treasures native scouts then. Because that's all they'll be good for. Seriously, why do people want to nerf anything that interferes with their "cookie cutter" builds?

native treasures can be exceptionally gay. And it's a mechanic that you can't do anything about either. Like, you're playing india, and the guy gets a tomahawk. You cant place forward agra anymore and you might still lose a villager, plus you cant really hunt treasures properly anymore and rip.

[hunter]

Tbh all units you can get in age 1 should have a multiplier vs vils

You might as well make all the unit treasures native scouts then. Because that's all they'll be good for. Seriously, why do people want to nerf anything that interferes with their "cookie cutter" builds?

native treasures can be exceptionally gay. And it's a mechanic that you can't do anything about either. Like, you're playing india, and the guy gets a tomahawk. You cant place forward agra anymore and you might still lose a villager, plus you cant really hunt treasures properly anymore and rip.

That is where understanding of map and treasures come into play.

[momuuu]

Show hidden quotes

Tbh all units you can get in age 1 should have a multiplier vs vils

You might as well make all the unit treasures native scouts then. Because that's all they'll be good for. Seriously, why do people want to nerf anything that interferes with their "cookie cutter" builds?

native treasures can be exceptionally gay. And it's a mechanic that you can't do anything about either. Like, you're playing india, and the guy gets a tomahawk. You cant place forward agra anymore and you might still lose a villager, plus you cant really hunt treasures properly anymore and rip.

That is where understanding of map and treasures come into play.

Theres only so much you can do about him finding a native. With so much I mean pray to garja.

[hunter]

Show hidden quotes

Tbh all units you can get in age 1 should have a multiplier vs vils

You might as well make all the unit treasures native scouts then. Because that's all they'll be good for. Seriously, why do people want to nerf anything that interferes with their "cookie cutter" builds?

native treasures can be exceptionally gay. And it's a mechanic that you can't do anything about either. Like, you're playing india, and the guy gets a tomahawk. You cant place forward agra anymore and you might still lose a villager, plus you cant really hunt treasures properly anymore and rip.

That is where understanding of map and treasures come into play.

Theres only so much you can do about him finding a native. With so much I mean pray to garja.

Well TBH I can't say I have played much on ESOC maps, because I haven't, but there is always some pattern in treasures, for example let's go to classic nilla GP, you can usually predict where treasures will be for ex. 95 80f 75c etc are most of the time on sides of the map 140f tends to spawn more in mid than sides etc.. ofcourse it's not 100% but you can always know about places where finding a native tres on a specific map is high chance

[lordraphael]

I think sending mm is a valid option. I never do it because you dont have to on EP maps and its actually a huge risk. E.g if you send mm against russia and the base goes up nonetheless ( you maybe kill 1 vill or 2 ) you are kinda screwed. Because without the mm threat russia becomes a lot stronger. Furthermore proper scouting can actually prevent any losses if you have your explorer actively searching for mms you should never lose anything to it. Snare is just to stronk

[momuuu]

The problem is also that mm can't really been done on without planning on doing it. Like, you cant see the vills randomly and just instantly decide to pop mm.

[Kaiserklein]

You might as well make all the unit treasures native scouts then. Because that's all they'll be good for. Seriously, why do people want to nerf anything that interferes with their "cookie cutter" builds?

You shouldn't really be able to deny a fb just because you were lucky enough to find a nat treasure. In some mus you have to fb, for example if you're russia or azzie and you can't fb just because the guy was lucky to find a nat, you can just lose the game. Just for a treasure. Or if it's a map with far hunts, he can deny your hunts by preventing you from herding them, which is gay as well.
And fyi a native warrior treasure can still be useful even if the nat can't kill vils. As germany I often pick them, because you can scout better + defend your explorer (germany is weak in age 1, if i'm vs france for example I'm glad to have an extra soldier) or kill the opponent's explorer. And even later it's still 1 unit, in early game it can matter, if you get a huaminca/nootka/toma in a cav war (like 2 uhlans vs 2 uhlans early on) it can swing the fight in your favour. Or if you're china and you get a nat warrior it's another guy to defend your ff.

That is where understanding of map and treasures come into play.

Most often it's luck or having a scouting/fighting advantage with your civ. What kind of understanding of map and treasures can make you win age 1 against sioux who has a rifleman ? Or as india against french native scout ?

Well TBH I can't say I have played much on ESOC maps, because I haven't, but there is always some pattern in treasures, for example let's go to classic nilla GP, you can usually predict where treasures will be for ex. 95 80f 75c etc are most of the time on sides of the map 140f tends to spawn more in mid than sides etc.. ofcourse it's not 100% but you can always know about places where finding a native tres on a specific map is high chance

GP has zero pattern, the treasures spawn 100% randomly, I've played it so many times as a nilla scrub yet you never find a pattern. On some esoc maps it's true, like kamchatka or manchuria, but on some others it's random as well, like for example the new maps, afaik.

[Papist]

Tbh all units you can get in age 1 should have a multiplier vs vils

You might as well make all the unit treasures native scouts then. Because that's all they'll be good for. Seriously, why do people want to nerf anything that interferes with their "cookie cutter" builds?

native treasures can be exceptionally gay. And it's a mechanic that you can't do anything about either. Like, you're playing india, and the guy gets a tomahawk. You cant place forward agra anymore and you might still lose a villager, plus you cant really hunt treasures properly anymore and rip.

And that's a problem? Why should you be able to go for the exact same strat every single game without getting punished for it? That early native might be your only chance of catching up vs India with a forward Agra, especially on maps like Klondike where all the hunts and mines spawn in the middle.

You might as well make all the unit treasures native scouts then. Because that's all they'll be good for. Seriously, why do people want to nerf anything that interferes with their "cookie cutter" builds?

You shouldn't really be able to deny a fb just because you were lucky enough to find a nat treasure. In some mus you have to fb, for example if you're russia or azzie and you can't fb just because the guy was lucky to find a nat, you can just lose the game. Just for a treasure. Or if it's a map with far hunts, he can deny your hunts by preventing you from herding them, which is gay as well.
And fyi a native warrior treasure can still be useful even if the nat can't kill vils. As germany I often pick them, because you can scout better + defend your explorer (germany is weak in age 1, if i'm vs france for example I'm glad to have an extra soldier) or kill the opponent's explorer. And even later it's still 1 unit, in early game it can matter, if you get a huaminca/nootka/toma in a cav war (like 2 uhlans vs 2 uhlans early on) it can swing the fight in your favour. Or if you're china and you get a nat warrior it's another guy to defend your ff.

Again, why should you be able to do the exact same build (especially if your opponent knows what you're doing) every single game without consequences? I understand that early nats are very good for applying pressure, but shouldn't they be? After all, the guy with the nat had to spend time taking that treasure, time that could have been spent scouting and picking up resource treasures. And we all know that vil and fb harassment is all those nats are really good for; if they had a negative multiplier against vils, NOBODY would pick them up. Because no matter how good they are in theoretical 2 uhlan vs 2 uhlan fights, they aren't worth it 99.99% of the time if you can't pressure with them.

[momuuu]

Losing vills because of a native or being denied out of the only things that work, all by the might of random chance, isnt the result of only trying one strat.. I dont even know how you can argue that.

The native singlehandedly denies many things, which means you cant do the things that actually work. Like, you started out doing 10/10 as india and then he gets a native. Time to lose a villager lol.

And if you think "the native scout if your only chance vs india" its probably time to stop arguing.