How to counter water laming

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United States of America Papist
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How to counter water laming

Post by Papist »

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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by Kaiserklein »

Hope you have a good water civ. Either way, your best bet is trying to get control of the water with culvs + towers (build a dock asap to get warships) while booming on earth. Or if you scout it early, just caravel rush
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Re: How to counter water laming

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Post by gibson »

resign
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by Jaeger »

I don't think you need to go for early (under 15 minutes) docks and towers. I think if you are good at treaty, you can just win the boom game. FF with full stagecoach TP and as much boom as you can get. Apply some land pressure in age 3 while going age 4 behind it. In age 4 make mortars and culverins (to counter their heavy cannons) and slow push the land. Stagger your artillery so that monitors cant kill many in one shot. You should be able to push him back with mortars because of your superior eco (after the fish run out, since he invested in fishing cards while you invested in land eco cards) and once you totally eradicate him on land you can focus on water. The reason why you need to be good at treaty to win this way is because you need really high APM and really good artillery control (which even most top sup players suck at compared to top treaty payers). While fighting you need to be walling multiple layers everywhere, building FB's maintaining pop, maintaining the correct number of artillery production, catching his raids (which he dropped off by warship, but you should be trying to wall the coast too at some point) etc. Almost none of the top sup players are not nearly as good at this as they think they are.
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by ssaraf »

+1 .... i m all for sup (never once played treaty) , but all points made by ovi are correct and at the same time criticize sup players :D ... (2 in 1) ... super answer
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by macacoalbino »

Yeah, Ovi's answer was sweet.
I was also advised to try ending the game fast by rushing the docks early with land forces and the 2 caravels card. I never tried the 3 caravel rush though, maybe it could be better...
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Tonga sdsanft
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by sdsanft »

ovi12 wrote:Almost none of the top sup players are not nearly as good at this as they think they are.

Kynesie is :P
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by Jaeger »

sdsanft wrote:
ovi12 wrote:Almost none of the top sup players are not nearly as good at this as they think they are.

Kynesie is :P


Yeah kynesie is one of the best. Though in his game vs lordraphael, he killed at least 1 factory but he did drain all his resources and lost because he kept taking cost innefective fights, rookie mistake in treaty :P
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by Smyrna »

I think if you do not go for water when practical you are risking defeat. If your strategy is to rush hard then forgoing water can be a good idea- yet if your rush fails you most certainly will as well if your opponent is on water.
I think early caravels is a good idea.

*I do not see enough people using caravels EARLY for raiding. What better way to get 5 calv into the back of an enemies base unexpectedly than by dropping them off via the sea? Also aids in retreat.
*Build towers when practical- maybe 600 wood card if not before.

The water really gives you a lot of extra options for your economy. I think you would be well served to include water booms which are best started in age 1 or at least very early age 2.
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

It's not hard. Just outbooming him and push the sea then.
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by Smyrna »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:It's not hard. Just outbooming him and push the sea then.


Do you think it better to try and out boom on land if your opponent goes water age 1? Once schooners are called fishing becomes very efficient and fast which allows your settlers to be put more on wood/gold earlier. I would be wary about opting to give my enemy freedom of the seas without contesting, especially if he was going early on.
I suppose civ choices do make a big difference as well as the particular map.
Of course you can wait until age 3 and send a frigate card if you have neglected water till that point- If enemy did not do the same first should help you get a decent footing.
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by Dsy »

Rush works i guess. I mean opponent send lot of resources for going water. Early its vulnerable, later its unbeatable/turn game into NR which killing the skill gap between players.
And Japan and port just so lama doing this. Japan can wall everything no hunt issue. Port 2 tc can defend well vs rush...
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by forgrin »

I honestly think beating water is entirely doable with only land (on most maps). The primary 2 factors are, IMO, proper deck selection and knowledge of proper lategame tactics. If you run a standard aggro deck against a water boomer, you will probably lose, even if you have warship cards in there. Schooners is comparable to extremely eco-heavy cards like refrigeration, royal mint, sustainable agriculture, cigar roller etc, it just gives the bonus much more immediately yet depreciates much more over time. You have to have eco cards in your anti-water deck.

The rest is basically just lategame stuff, getting upgrades from arsenal etc, walling and using outposts well, fighting with artillery. Monitors can be a real problem but as long as you build your factories far enough inland it shouldn't be that much of an issue.
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by _DB_ »

How do you beat nayuki/kynesie seabooms with Spain?

I've saw H2O losing to nayuki (its obvious cuz borneo sux for mankl builds). What can spain do on such maps like indonesia or indochina when there is no real options for mankl tp booms?

I've saw piroshiki doing musk rush then making infinte culvs in age 4
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

You don't try to outboom the sea with a land play, but you'll have a better eco early (like until 9min), and at 9min you want to timing to kill him (make freagates, send the freagate/2falcs and either take the sea back or kill his land eco).
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by _DB_ »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:You don't try to outboom the sea with a land play, but you'll have a better eco early (like until 9min), and at 9min you want to timing to kill him (make freagates, send the freagate/2falcs and either take the sea back or kill his land eco).


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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by WickedCossack »

I like playing vs water.

Usually a good strategy is to pressure their land at 5 mins. Follow it up with one eco card (e.g vils) and keep poking and making land units. Then ship 700w (or equivalent) -> Use for dock and build a caravel. Send 2 caravels and push water (I think about 9 mins?) while stile poking and idling him on the land.

Once you've established a contain on both land and water you will find yourself surging to victory ! (Hopefully)
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by Mimsy for President »

What gibson said : resign.
In short term, it might annoy you but in the long run, these guys won't water lame because they are junkies and need to play.
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by adderbrain5 »

shipping two caravels puts a full stop on an all in fish boom. unless he ships advance dock you can just make a couple more and blow him out of the water. He won't likely be able to make more than one tower max before you get your caravels out if he is going all in water. so just age up fast and ship the caravels and go to town. Land rushes are good too of course, but they have gone wrong for me on maps like saguenay! I've had people I rushed on land hide way way up in the corner by shipping warships to kill and outrange my age 2 troops!, then rebuild a TC, age up with creates and continue his water boom. and one time the opponent, rated significantly higher than me was able to even get to age 5! I was iroquois he was french.. his ship cards outranged my battering rams in fortress of course! then we both got to industrial, I finally got some light canon but he got monitors!. it was a ridiculous two hour game of me controlling almost the whole map, but unable to range to his monitors in the middle of the lake, getting shelled every 3o seconds, chasing around gendarme boxes with shitty musket rider etc... of course i won in the end but it was a real bitch.
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Re: How to counter water laming

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

adderbrain5 wrote:I was iroquois he was french.. his ship cards outranged my battering rams in fortress of course! then we both got to industrial, I finally got some light canon but he got monitors!. it was a ridiculous two hour game of me controlling almost the whole map, but unable to range to his monitors in the middle of the lake, getting shelled every 3o seconds, chasing around gendarme boxes with shitty musket rider etc... of course i won in the end but it was a real bitch.

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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by fei123456 »

it depends on the map.
new ESOC maps dont have 4+ whales (except indonesia). but many RE maps he will have more whales (indochina, borneo, saguenay, etc).
and your opponent is usually britian. he will send virginia company too, and booooooom like a beast.
so what you should do is:
1. choose british too, build a deck, send 700w, 2 caravel, offshore support, ship combat.
or
2. age up, send 2 cannons to kill his buildings, then 1000w, 3tc, boooooooom too (build all your buildings far away from the shore), go age 4.
or
3. age up, send a frigate and try to build a dock (usually impossible but you can try), and train 2nd and 3rd frigate asap, and push from both land and sea.
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by fei123456 »

WickedCossack wrote:I like playing vs water.

Usually a good strategy is to pressure their land at 5 mins. Follow it up with one eco card (e.g vils) and keep poking and making land units. Then ship 700w (or equivalent) -> Use for dock and build a caravel. Send 2 caravels and push water (I think about 9 mins?) while stile poking and idling him on the land.

Once you've established a contain on both land and water you will find yourself surging to victory ! (Hopefully)

it's not that easy.
firt at all you can't pressure his land at 5 min: he will always wall a lot, and may even train a few longbow.
then, you can't build a dock at all. he will train 3rd 4th 5th caravel and never let your vills reach the shore.
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by optimusprime »

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Re: How to counter water laming

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Post by Gichtenlord »

optimusprime wrote:http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?p=149333#p149333 how to Play water

Thats what happens everytime u watch ur rec
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4[/video]
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Re: How to counter water laming

Post by optimusprime »

Gichtenlord wrote:
optimusprime wrote:http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?p=149333#p149333 how to Play water

Thats what happens everytime u watch ur rec
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4[/video]

yeah^^

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