How to FI as Aztec

[Garja]

Finally, what is sad about community members showing their appreciation for a guide on a meta-defying strategy?

Nothing if that was the case. It's sad players get (seriously) impressed over a cookie cutter strat, which means that lot of knowledge of the game has been lost from the past to current days.
Aside from that, nothing wrong in sharing a new strategy.

[deleted_user0]

lol whats a cookie cutter strat even... ofcourse there is nothing impressive with this though, literally everyone can do it XD i guess thats what you mean?

[momuuu]

You reinvent the strat when you guide it. As for H2O hes more stubborn than right most of the time imo, same for you caria. And besides, Im more inclined to believe diarouga anyways.

[Garja]

lol whats a cookie cutter strat even... ofcourse there is nothing impressive with this though, literally everyone can do it XD i guess thats what you mean?

Yes, kinda.
It is a linear strat, without complications of any sort that rely mostly on clicking shipments.

You reinvent the strat when you guide it. As for H2O hes more stubborn than right most of the time imo, same for you caria. And besides, Im more inclined to believe diarouga anyways.

You're free to believe what you want but h2o, as stubborn as he might be, knows a thing or two more than you, me or diarouga.

[LordCharlie_131]

this strat works(ed) against russia. nagayumi won with it + walls against blackstar being russia. bs went to the fortress quickly and had a musk/canon combo. the warchief killed over 10 canons, was quite funny to watch.

[deleted_user0]

well diarouga hasnt really come up with anything revolutionary, he just explained it, and i guess cuz its not boneng doing it now with all its strangeness, its somehow less mystical. but you could already see in nagayumis play, which is reasonably dry and neat for the japan meta, that it was a lame but strong strat. you need to kill it before IV really. best way to kill it offensively is probably a timing as the strat hits III. or when they just start to age up is even better.

[zoom]

Show hidden quotes

lol
We can do aztec mirror to begin with. If normal play beats the FI it means that FI is not OP otherwise normal play would be even more.

diarouga clearly said: "Vs azzy, RE iro, russia and otto it's just not possible."

Well, first he says it's very strong and it wins games. Then he proceeds saying it doesn't work vs some civs. Then he says it works if you get to age IV without damage. Those are lot of conditions lol. 70% of strats work if you put so many "if".
Anyway it's sad you guys get impressed over strats like this. As I said, if that's the case for the Aztec FI, then lots of FI are also OP.

Diarouga never claimed that the strategy wins unconditionally in every scenario. If anything it's to his credit that he advises against using the strategy when it is weak. Besides, those seem like reasonable conditions to me, so what's your point?

You then proceed to suggest testing the viability of the strategy of the OP in a scenario where the OP explicitly states it is not viable. In other words, you plan on discrediting an entire concept by proving correct a single one of its self-stated exceptions. Please read the previous sentence carefully one more time, let it sink in and consider it thoroughly.


[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0-mqPpGSgc&index=42&list=PLbQ-gSLYQEc6IWgKJNOMUONgtNXdwVcDC&t=8s[/video]

[spoiler=Key to the video]The AC-adapter of the ColecoVision is a metaphore for your idea of the test scenario[/spoiler]

Finally, what is sad about community members showing their appreciation for a guide on a meta-defying strategy?

By the way, I just checked: with the Industrial Age "The Chief" council politician and a 35 dancer-population War Chief Dance, the Aztec War Chief has approximately 4127 hitpoints in the Industrial Age. With the "High Priest of Ixtlilton" home-city shipment sent as well, it has approximately 4656 hitpoints in the same age.

[lordraphael]

i think no one claims that diarouga has invented the strat or done anything revolutionary.
He simply refined a lame strat Boneng used, and as you said, demystified it. When Boneng does things all people are like " wtf how did he do it " , but thats mainly because he either hasnt really a build in his head but rather an "idea " of what he wants to do, or he is simply so bad mechanically that he cant execute his well planned out builds and we only see the poorly executed versions of his builds all the time. Personally I think its a mixture of both , tho his poor mechanics is probably the more dominant factor .

[lordraphael]

this strat works(ed) against russia. nagayumi won with it + walls against blackstar being russia. bs went to the fortress quickly and had a musk/canon combo. the warchief killed over 10 canons, was quite funny to watch.

I think walling is the epitome of lame. IMO it has no place in a game like aoe 3. I would be fine to have walls enabled once you research the stone walls upgrade. But not before. Far to many players, even good ones, use it to gain undeserved advantages( its not a " skill " that would justify such significant advantages you gain with it) , sometimes even making it almost impossible to win. Im pretty sure that you can win any mu ( excluding iro and to a certain extent otto, tho they actually have a few civs that can cause them trouble) because you cant win those civs at equal skill level if the opponent doesnt mess up without laming walls, assuming you have a half decent map.

[zoom]

I don't think walls are a problem on EP since @Goodspeed

notification

so meticulously ruined them.

[momuuu]

I dont like walls either, wish they were removed.

[Jaeger]

German are kinda akward because they don't really have a good late game unit. Actually skirm (royal guard) and ulhans with ups might be enough. They can also probably just play age3 as long as they keep pressure while booming. Aztecs could stay fortress as well tho and have a chance. Germans are just not very flexible.
Lot of other civs can just play macro beat this. Port for example even without outstanding units can just go for a very standard cassas+goons+organs (or w/e meatshield unit if necessary) and mass organs alone force Aztecs to produce something different from maces and skulls. Just be sure the war chief doesn't trade too well and then kill the firepit.
The point is to play macro tho. And maybe doing some damage while Aztecs are doing this thing just to buy more time (eco needs bit of time to pay off over stuff like infinite maces card).

Hm well I just rewatched blackstar vs nagayumi in spring championship. Blackstar was playing russia and making musk+cannons and he lost. What should he have done better?

[pecelot]

You gotta hit and run a 2500 HP unit with 55% RR, not easy while SK kill your city.

And it does get 4000 hp (4200 iirc).

[Jaeger]

i never played it but i watched dias stream when he did it and I also watched boneng doing it sucessfully many times ( and honestly if boneng wins with it, its OP )

Is urumi FI OP too?

[Garja]

Hmm I'm rewatching it now. His plan seems ok, bit of harass while aging. Then he made some musks and some opris which again is good (but if you have seen this strat already you might just punish it with full opris+boyars). He managed to enter the base but wasted all the opris fighting instead of just sieging down the firepit. The key is to kill the firepit really and opris do that in like 2-3 shots.
Also I would have waited for the 2 cannons in this case. But in general I would have tried something different like just go full eco behind first 5 coss and then keep making eco with walls and just make units when you feel he's going to push out (by that time you should have 3-4 blockhouses). Also probably just colonial play with a timing behind stagecoach, you probably end up forcing atleast one fortress shipments while still doing damage and then you age up behind that.

[lordraphael]

i never played it but i watched dias stream when he did it and I also watched boneng doing it sucessfully many times ( and honestly if boneng wins with it, its OP )

Is urumi FI OP too?

lol.... All I had to do in that game was make 2 stables and start spamming goons but for some reason I decided to keep on pumping skirms and cuirs. But people are amazed how boneng won while I simply underestimated urumis in age 4 and thought that cuirs could deal with them. Boneng didnt win this, I lost this game. Its hilarious that I won 4-1 in that series but all people remember is that one game where I went autopilot and stopped thinking for 15 mins. I could replay this mu and strat vs boneng 1000 times and I guarantee you i wouldnt lose a single game
To answer youre question: Vs fre its definetly a shitty build ,probably bad in all mus

[deleted_user0]

well you got gloriously stomped.

[Kaiserklein]

i think no one claims that diarouga has invented the strat or done anything revolutionary.
He simply refined a lame strat Boneng used, and as you said, demystified it. When Boneng does things all people are like " wtf how did he do it " , but thats mainly because he either hasnt really a build in his head but rather an "idea " of what he wants to do, or he is simply so bad mechanically that he cant execute his well planned out builds and we only see the poorly executed versions of his builds all the time. Personally I think its a mixture of both , tho his poor mechanics is probably the more dominant factor .

Lol come on his mechanics aren't that bad...

[Jaeger]

Hmm I'm rewatching it now. His plan seems ok, bit of harass while aging. Then he made some musks and some opris which again is good (but if you have seen this strat already you might just punish it with full opris+boyars). He managed to enter the base but wasted all the opris fighting instead of just sieging down the firepit. The key is to kill the firepit really and opris do that in like 2-3 shots.
Also I would have waited for the 2 cannons in this case. But in general I would have tried something different like just go full eco behind first 5 coss and then keep making eco with walls and just make units when you feel he's going to push out (by that time you should have 3-4 blockhouses). Also probably just colonial play with a timing behind stagecoach, you probably end up forcing atleast one fortress shipments while still doing damage and then you age up behind that.

But his opris died while trying to kill WP. They would've died even faster if he sieged the firepit, and then nagayumi would've just rebuilt it?

[Garja]

No lol they died without doing zero damage because they path like shit in that situation. And opris are just more efficient at sieging anyway. Also that's what you want to do, siege firepit, warhut and maybe houses and then either force a reaction and lose army or even get away with part of it.
Rebuild tp takes time btw,especially cause it's hard to find a place in the base. And meanwhile you can't revive explorer nor spam warriors.

[pecelot]

cant you rebuild the firepit in the exact same spot?

[[Armag] diarouga]

lol
We can do aztec mirror to begin with. If normal play beats the FI it means that FI is not OP otherwise normal play would be even more.

diarouga clearly said: "Vs azzy, RE iro, russia and otto it's just not possible."

Well, first he says it's very strong and it wins games. Then he proceeds saying it doesn't work vs some civs. Then he says it works if you get to age IV without damage. Those are lot of conditions lol. 70% of strats work if you put so many "if".
Anyway it's sad you guys get impressed over strats like this. As I said, if that's the case for the Aztec FI, then lots of FI are also OP.

The argument started with you saying that you could win a macro game vs my strat.
So just take France, semi ff, send 1000w, build tcs and play the macro game xD.
Otto/russia/aztec can stop the fi with a timing push, but they are the only civs which can do that.

Also you have to understand that some strats work in some mus and not in some others. So, if the std play doesn't work in mirror, it doesn't mean that that it's better than any other strat
In india mirror, you do the 600w/300exports build, but it doesn't mean that it's better than the sepoy rush in every situations lol
#garja's logic

[[Armag] diarouga]

Show hidden quotes

lol
We can do aztec mirror to begin with. If normal play beats the FI it means that FI is not OP otherwise normal play would be even more.

diarouga clearly said: "Vs azzy, RE iro, russia and otto it's just not possible."

Well, first he says it's very strong and it wins games. Then he proceeds saying it doesn't work vs some civs. Then he says it works if you get to age IV without damage. Those are lot of conditions lol. 70% of strats work if you put so many "if".
Anyway it's sad you guys get impressed over strats like this. As I said, if that's the case for the Aztec FI, then lots of FI are also OP.

i never played it but i watched dias stream when he did it and I also watched boneng doing it sucessfully many times ( and honestly if boneng wins with it, its OP ) and I think its insanely good. Ofc you need to be clever and be a good player to get to IV but that shouldnt be to hard asssuming you know what youre doing.
Also RE Iro and otto is literally the lamest shit ever so its not really surprising, Most strats that deviate from " std " play dont work in mirrors so its not surprising either that it doesnt work in azzie mirrors .
Not entirely sure why it shouldnt work vs russia but i guess its probably because you cant use shit like mm and cav pops to kill their stre mass and so its hard to even get to IV without drowning in units. However i can imagine that once you have established a "balance of fright" you can savely get away with aging to III and IV consecutively in that mu.
Japs have been doing this strat for years (arguably they are usually pretty bad in crafting efficent builds, but they know perfectly how to abuse OP mechanics ) so if dia says its strong then I believe him because im sure that hes doing it way more efficent than jap guys while the abusable and OP shit that azzie has remains the same.

It doesn't work vs russia because of the strelets, you simply can't kill them and won't reach the industrial age.
The japanese play on re maps first of all, which means that they age to industrial 30sec (if not 1min), later than I do.
They often don't have the perfect build order, and don't defend well enough (like using warriors, wp, sendind a mace shipment etc).
I don't even wall atm, it could help a lot.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Ive been around long enough to remember you being a major, yet diarouga knows more about the game than I do oh great garjalogix.

If youre such a genius, please tell me how every civ beats it and then just go beat diarouga with it, or boneng.

Ye that's 2009 I think, but I doubt you spent more than 1/5 of the time I spent on this game (and maybe it's better you didn't lol).
As for your challenge (which is kinda beyond my point anyway), I could do that. But this thing of proving stuff every time gets boring lol. If you don't believe me, atleast trust h2o who said the exact same thing.

H2O was wrong about sioux, he also said for a long time that germany is weak etc.
He changes his mind only if he loses a game.
I'm not sure that the serie would prove something since you would blindly try to counter me, while in a real serie I would mix the play and sometimes go std etc.

[[Armag] diarouga]

You gotta hit and run a 2500 HP unit with 55% RR, not easy while SK kill your city.

And it does get 4000 hp (4200 iirc).

With the chief dance lol, you dumb.
If your opponent has 50 units and you want to kill his canons you do this dance.

The strategy nagayumi did is 50sec slower than mine, and you have 2 less shipments when you reach the 4th age.
Bsop lost because he did a semi ff while russia can kill it in colonial. It proves my point that playing a macro game vs this is just not possible.