The Russia thread

[[Armag] diarouga]

well ask a good french player to play vs a good russ player (let''s say gs).
gs does his 2 early tp build with 300w as stated, the french guy to go regular bo musk huss (he can also go for semi here, doesn''t really matter), and you will see who win. i gtg Ill check the thread later if someone has an idea abt it, but I''m pretty sure abt what I said

Sam vs GS?

[benj89]

I wish I could test it unfortunately I don't have aoe on my mac, and even if I could it's to old for me to play any video games on it. so you would have to ask someone else until this summer

[benj89]

I guess yeah sam vs GS sounds fair, up to them

[fei123456]

the two reasons why you loose, because he will timing push you musk huss and you won''t be able to do anything:
you didn''t pressure early (he does his timing wit nothing to counter it), and secondly your 2TPs won''t pay off in time

no its just the beginning of age 2. he has 5 hussar and i only have 3-4 because of the tp.

[Jaeger]

The first 2 points only prove that 3v>'trickle tho, they dont say anything about how trickle compares to 300w.

Its true that sending 300w helps you get the market AND you dont sacrifice unit-making, but I would rather delay steel traps until 700w to not sacrifice unit making, and just have the wood trickle advantage which pays off after 6:30 (tho you do get a bit more xp than if you ship trickle and delay TP until 400w, so i guess its a BIT later than that). If you ship wood trickle I dont even think you have to ship 600w later on unless you make a LOT of strelets. You would probably ship at least 700g 700w 5 coss possibly 700f, boyars and another unit shipment before you ship 600w, and by then the trickle would have gathered a lot.

Btw how do you chop up someones post so you can respond for example in the middle of their post? Do you go to BBC code and type it in between there?

Actually the 700w build is with 2 TPs while aging and bh with 400w, thats better than bh while aging and tp with 400w since you want to timing.

At 6min40 trickle gave you 300w ok, but at 8min 300w gives you a free shipment.

I was actually thinking of 5 cossacks>'700w, with TP from 400w. If you ship 300w yeah youll get a couple more passes from TP if you dont wait for 400w, but still youre loosing out on so much wood.

[Jaeger]

The first 2 points only prove that 3v>'trickle tho, they dont say anything about how trickle compares to 300w.

Yeah thats what I was going for, since you asked why not send 300w with every civ. Its because 3v >'>'>' wood trickle.

Its true that sending 300w helps you get the market AND you dont sacrifice unit-making, but I would rather delay steel traps until 700w to not sacrifice unit making, and just have the wood trickle advantage which pays off after 6:30 (tho you do get a bit more xp than if you ship trickle and delay TP until 400w, so i guess its a BIT later than that). If you ship wood trickle I dont even think you have to ship 600w later on unless you make a LOT of strelets. You would probably ship at least 700g 700w 5 coss possibly 700f, boyars and another unit shipment before you ship 600w, and by then the trickle would have gathered a lot.

Youre missing that it doesnt actually overtake 300w in value after 6:30, in fact it never does. 300w is not being invested in units, its being invested in eco (TP and market). Its 1.2xp/s + 100w, which >' 1.25w/s.
Compare it to Japan sending 2v or 300w. In theory, 2v will overtake the 300w shipment after 10 min but since the 300w can be invested in 4 shrines it actually stays better all game.

Btw how do you chop up someones post so you can respond for example in the middle of their post? Do you go to BBC code and type it in between there?

Yes go to BBCode and manually add [quote*] tags.

Proving 3v>'300w and 3v>'trickle doesnt prove that 300w>'trickle but anyway not important. Im not saying that you shouldnt build a TP at all, you could theoretically wait until 6:40 when the trickle gathered 300w already, but if you just build it when you get your 400w at lets say 4:40. If its 1.2 xp/s then I guess you are loosing like you wont get housed or anything, youre just loosing like 220 xp.

[Garja]

or, or, or u can simply build the tp from the 400w age up

[benj89]

couprider I was talking about the 300w 2 early TP situation that diarouga mentioned
but this could actually be tried easily not only by sam since there a several solid french player on eso atm

[Jaeger]

even if there are bos where russ can win vs french without early press, I dont believe 2 early TPs with 300w is one of them. would like someone to prove me Im wrong, just talking from experience

Well,
France>'russia but 300w 2tp is one of the best way for russia. We can test it this week-end.

How is this 700w build? 300w>'700w>'700g>'5 coss>'4 coss?

[deleted_user0]

I would never ship 300w over distribut.
1.25 wood trickle>'1.2 xp trickle. and TP can be sieged.

[deleted_user0]

even if there are bos where russ can win vs french without early press, I dont believe 2 early TPs with 300w is one of them. would like someone to prove me Im wrong, just talking from experience

Well,
France>'russia but 300w 2tp is one of the best way for russia. We can test it this week-end.

Both of your statements are incorrect.

Benj: 700w-700g-700f-5 coz and timed push works well. Block base and get ST asap. Then mix coss and musk and push at 8-9 min.
Early TP is garbage imo.

[benj89]

I never said the bo you just mentioned wasnt good. its a known classic russ bo. re read the thread, I talked about 300w 2early TP.

[benj89]

there are basically 3 I had in mind, the one you mentioned with 700f as a variation - might change to 5coss then 700f to deal with some press, another with spice trade, and then water as bo which could work vs french without early press.
I still find it risky not to press a french on land tho, but anyway, would be nice if someone could prove my point that this 300w 2TP early tp vs french just doesn't work in any case if the french guy knows what hes doing

[Jaeger]

Well,
France>'russia but 300w 2tp is one of the best way for russia. We can test it this week-end.

Both of your statements are incorrect.

Benj: 700w-700g-700f-5 coz and timed push works well. Block base and get ST asap. Then mix coss and musk and push at 8-9 min.
Early TP is garbage imo.

You think russia beats france on high hunts too tho? And always distributivism, right?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Well,
France>'russia but 300w 2tp is one of the best way for russia. We can test it this week-end.

How is this 700w build? 300w>'700w>'700g>'5 coss>'4 coss?

300w/700w/700g/600g/5coss.

[fei123456]

How is this 700w build? 300w>'700w>'700g>'5 coss>'4 coss?

300w/700w/700g/600g/5coss.

what about french straight FF?

[[Armag] diarouga]

300w/700w/700g/600g/5coss.

what about french straight FF?

bad strat?

[bugattivitesse]

I am starting to feel like russia is great for the Master seargent level, but after that, players use more versatile civs and dance around russia.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I am starting to feel like russia is great for the Master seargent level, but after that, players use more versatile civs and dance around russia.

Almost. But I think it is a playable civ.

[_venox_]

I guess trickle vs 300w is about even, let me explain: You have some options when it comes down to when you can build trading posts: From 300w you could build a tp, during the age up you could build 1-2 tps (if 2tp then bh from 400w) and from 400w you could build 1-2 tps (2 are too many, but still possible). The tp count is depending on whether you want to go for an earlier timing, a later timing or general economic play. 300w just opens the possibility to go for a boomy/late timing approach early on while the trickle is better if you want to pressure early and go for an early timing. And about the shipment discussion: I think it depends very much on how much you fight with your opponent: Sure an additional tp nets you 1 shipment at 10-12 but you have less army early on (due to the 200w investment) but additional army gets you more exp from fighting. With 2 tps your timing will be late so you try to not trade off armies before your strongpoint at 10-12, which means you're missing out on that battle exp. Also trickle means you can focus your economy on food/coin only which is easier manageable.
Long story short: 300w vs trickle depends on your max boom potential vs max rush potential.

And in Ru vs Fre I lose most games vs Fre if I can't quite pressure his economy and lose to his timing. In theory Ru timing should be better or beat Fre timing, but his hussars tank so much damage and his army can snowball down yours easier than reverse.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I guess trickle vs 300w is about even, let me explain: You have some options when it comes down to when you can build trading posts: From 300w you could build a tp, during the age up you could build 1-2 tps (if 2tp then bh from 400w) and from 400w you could build 1-2 tps (2 are too many, but still possible). The tp count is depending on whether you want to go for an earlier timing, a later timing or general economic play. 300w just opens the possibility to go for a boomy/late timing approach early on while the trickle is better if you want to pressure early and go for an early timing. And about the shipment discussion: I think it depends very much on how much you fight with your opponent: Sure an additional tp nets you 1 shipment at 10-12 but you have less army early on (due to the 200w investment) but additional army gets you more exp from fighting. With 2 tps your timing will be late so you try to not trade off armies before your strongpoint at 10-12, which means you''re missing out on that battle exp. Also trickle means you can focus your economy on food/coin only which is easier manageable.
Long story short: 300w vs trickle depends on your max boom potential vs max rush potential.

And in Ru vs Fre I lose most games vs Fre if I can''t quite pressure his economy and lose to his timing. In theory Ru timing should be better or beat Fre timing, but his hussars tank so much damage and his army can snowball down yours easier than reverse.

I agree.
300w with 2TP is for a timing while trickle is better if you rush.

[Hazza54321]

Your argument is invalid because a TP is a better long term investment than 1.25w/s

i see where you coming from but using a shipment to get a tp isnt worth it imo

[Goodspeed]

It's a TP + 100w. Anyway, then how is it worth using a shipment for 1.25w/s since that is worse than a TP, and definitely worse than a TP + 100w?
If you don't think 300w is worth it, then save the shipment.

[Hazza54321]

the 1.25w/s is very useful as you dont need to gather any wood for the majority of the early game (unless for upgrades) and helps you get enough wood for bh in transition slightly quicker

[Goodspeed]

Sorry but those are both pretty terrible arguments. 100w helps you more in getting the BH up quicker than trickle does, and no shit trickle is useful. I'm not saying it isn't, I'm saying it's less useful than a TP which speeds up your build. By the way if you send the right cards you don't need to gather any wood in the early game either way.