What's with the germans?

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 27 May 2015, 04:37

If I were to change something, maybe reduce the number of uhlans you get by 1, but give germany musk.

What I like about them:
Very unique civ
Fun to play

What I don't like about them:
Not a very strong civ, but if you're not really careful you can easily loose to them (thats why everybody thinks thy're OP when theyre not)
Too easy to lame uhlan raids
Too gold dependent
War wagons are ok but I wish they had goons and/or musk

kushkush · Post by **kushkush** » 27 May 2015, 05:08

The Germans are my favorite civ. I love playing with cav and the micro that comes with it. You need skill to be good with Germans because they are not a boomy civ in comparison to Brits or Japan, they are an aggressive timing civ like Spain and China. Your main task is to take advantage of your extra cav, and even more importantly don't lose them. Uhlan are very weak that they are easy to sacrifice, but it is critical that you keep as many alive, as this is your task to winning games.

The best thing about German imo is their shipment pop from a tc onto a committed enemy army. You'd be surprised how much damage 3 dopps can do. 9 and 8 uhlan shipments are very satisfying. Their cav semi ff is really strong due to a strong military timing from their age 3 shipments. Shipments are the key to German's success.

They're hard to learn at first for new players because of weird units and villager distribution ratios. HOUSING. Exposed gold mines in the middle of the map. Many times you can lose the game because of exposed gold mining vills.Uhlans and dopps will make or break you. Either the battle goes really well for you or your army gets decimated from a solid composition. Of course unit positioning in fights is critical for any civ, but with these units it makes it even more important that you pick you battles wisely. Fighting lb with uhlan in a dense portion of trees on himalayas won't work

I mean if Uhlan went from 2 population to 1, German would be so OP. I think the addition of musks would make Germany OP too, Think of their imaginary muks/uhlan builds. I wish Germany had schooners but of course it would be imbalanced. German as a turtle water civ with dopps and outposts would be interesting, eh? I also think they receive their exp for shipments 10% slower or something like that, so changing that would be a neat little bonus. I wish war wagons weren't a thing

Also think about having 1 uhlan running around in age 1

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 27 May 2015, 05:09

ovi12 wrote:If I were to change something, maybe reduce the number of uhlans you get by 1, but give germany musk.

What I like about them:
Very unique civ
Fun to play

What I don''t like about them:
Not a very strong civ, but if you''re not really careful you can easily loose to them (thats why everybody thinks thy''re OP when theyre not)
Too easy to lame uhlan raids
Too gold dependent
War wagons are ok but I wish they had goons and/or musk

They are op.

DerMaxinator · Post by **DerMaxinator** » 27 May 2015, 05:16

They are definitly too gold dependant...

Marco1698 · Post by **Marco1698** » 27 May 2015, 05:39

diarouga wrote:
ovi12 wrote:If I were to change something, maybe reduce the number of uhlans you get by 1, but give germany musk.

What I like about them:
Very unique civ
Fun to play

What I dont like about them:
Not a very strong civ, but if youre not really careful you can easily loose to them (thats why everybody thinks thyre OP when theyre not)
Too easy to lame uhlan raids
Too gold dependent
War wagons are ok but I wish they had goons and/or musk

They are op.

+1

deleted_user0 · Post by **deleted_user0** » 27 May 2015, 05:46

2
2 uhlan
2 uhlan fucking
2 uhlan fucking everywhere
FFFFUFUUUUUUUU

me no gusta

oxaloacetate · Post by **oxaloacetate** » 27 May 2015, 06:29

somppukunkku wrote:2
2 uhlan
2 uhlan fucking
2 uhlan fucking everywhere
FFFFUFUUUUUUUU

me no gusta

Rated T for Teen.

Mitoe · Post by **Mitoe** » 27 May 2015, 07:53

What's good about them:
- Strong shipments which get better with each age, making anti-cav a necessity vs Germany, regardless of whether or not they have a stable
- Solid economy
- Not overly reliant on hunts (and we all know that on standard ES maps this is a good thing

)

What's bad about them:
- Only 1 scout, making them fairly weak in age 1
- TP reliant: if they lose their scout before they build their TP, they have to build with a SW or just skip the TP, which sucks and can even cost you the game in some cases, and on non-TP maps Germany's civ bonus becomes fairly mediocre.
- Poor late game scaling: their units are nothing special :/
- Awkward anti-cav: pikes suck' dopps are expensive, take long to train, and are pretty slow' WW have poor stats for their cost and aren't very micro-able

I don't know that I'd change anything about Germany, they have their strengths and weaknesses, and I think they balance out fairly well. People can cry about Germany being OP or easy or whatever want, but I think they fall somewhere in the middle of the pack.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 27 May 2015, 07:54

You know Germans are a bit too strong now when the only way to not get outplayed is by mirroring them.

mnogud · Post by **mnogud** » 27 May 2015, 08:08

Whats is their animation while ww turn around..... ww are cav yet are bigger than howdahs( elephants) :3
i would really love to see them have a 2 falc shipment... they get shipents slower and 2 falcs would be good

deleted_user0 · Post by **deleted_user0** » 27 May 2015, 09:45

garja wrote:You know Germans are a bit too strong now when the only way to not get outplayed is by mirroring them.

???

Since when did iro and otto stop beating germany? Also fre and india still seem solid.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 27 May 2015, 09:53

Iro and otto don't count. Fre don't exactly beat them and India only consistently does on RE maps.
I'm talking of tourney mostly.

Mimsy for President · Post by **Mimsy for President** » 27 May 2015, 10:05

Strengths :
- The easiest civ to play next to sioux, otto &' iro.
- Same eco as french.
- Cool units
- Free raids

Weaknesses
- No musk :/............................ no I'm kidding uhlan = anti cav, anti range cav, anti building [...] anti ship, anti ronin, anti swiss pike, anti mameluke, anti landsknecht etc.

Also if people say germans aren't op, don't trust them because they play at least 95% germans.

musketjr · Post by **musketjr** » 27 May 2015, 10:44

they benefit the most from tps being too cheap as their shipments are designed to be too good while also costing more.

also 6 vill + 2 uhlan is way too good early

deleted_user0 · Post by **deleted_user0** » 27 May 2015, 11:04

ye 3sw shipment shouldnt come with uhlans.

Goodspeed · Post by **Goodspeed** » 27 May 2015, 11:20

umeu wrote:ye 3sw shipment shouldnt come with uhlans.

FP did this and it''s a bad change. German shipments are supposed to be better than other civs'' because they get +2 uhlan. If we''d nerf that shipment it would be nerfed to 5v instead of 3sw, not -2 uhlans.
But I think the way to fix Germans is an early game eco nerf. -1 vill +200f or -100f.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 27 May 2015, 11:22

On nilla ulhans have -10%rr, -10hp(?), and malus vs vills. Also skirms have no malus vs cav, TC has bonus against cav and unit pathing is terrible. German shipment rate is also slightly worse and TP is of course more expensive.
Ulhans are indeed shit on nilla.

But what about TAD? Are ulhans fine tuned at the moment or maybe there was an in between balance point that ES missed with the TAD patches?

Also what are the stats of ulhans on TWC?

EDIT:
actually I'm wrong, nilla and TAD ulhans have same hp and rr but different speed (6.50 vs 6.75) and attack vs vills (it's x0.75 on nilla).

Still I run a test with ulhans vs hussars syncing the first hit.

7 ulhans vs 5 huss (1050 vs 1000 resources) is like complete rape (3,4,5-0)
6 ulhans vs 5 huss (900 vs 1000 res) it's always very close and can go either way
[span]
And that doesn't account for the extra 10%rr that ulhans have over huss.[/span]

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 27 May 2015, 13:55

garja wrote:On nilla ulhans have -10%rr, -10hp(?), and malus vs vills. Also skirms have no malus vs cav, TC has bonus against cav and unit pathing is terrible. German shipment rate is also slightly worse and TP is of course more expensive.
Ulhans are indeed shit on nilla.

But what about TAD? Are ulhans fine tuned at the moment or maybe there was an in between balance point that ES missed with the TAD patches?

Also what are the stats of ulhans on TWC?

EDIT:
actually I''m wrong, nilla and TAD ulhans have same hp and rr but different speed (6.50 vs 6.75) and attack vs vills (it''s x0.75 on nilla).

Still I run a test with ulhans vs hussars syncing the first hit.

7 ulhans vs 5 huss (1050 vs 1000 resources) is like complete rape (3,4,5-0)
6 ulhans vs 5 huss (900 vs 1000 res) it''s always very close and can go either way
[span]
And that doesn''t account for the extra 10%rr that ulhans have over huss.[/span]

You tried uhlan vs huss on nilla or TAD? H2o said 7 uhlan vs 5 huss is very even

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 27 May 2015, 13:58

I think if germany had musk they would do a 10 musk 4 uhlan semi ff every game and it would be able to beat french. ATM it gets raped by french.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 27 May 2015, 14:27

7v5 is not even close without micro. Dunno what side benefits more by micro.

deleted_user0 · Post by **deleted_user0** » 27 May 2015, 15:38

ovi12 wrote:
garja wrote:On nilla ulhans have -10%rr, -10hp(?), and malus vs vills. Also skirms have no malus vs cav, TC has bonus against cav and unit pathing is terrible. German shipment rate is also slightly worse and TP is of course more expensive.
Ulhans are indeed shit on nilla.

But what about TAD? Are ulhans fine tuned at the moment or maybe there was an in between balance point that ES missed with the TAD patches?

Also what are the stats of ulhans on TWC?

EDIT:
actually Im wrong, nilla and TAD ulhans have same hp and rr but different speed (6.50 vs 6.75) and attack vs vills (its x0.75 on nilla).

Still I run a test with ulhans vs hussars syncing the first hit.

7 ulhans vs 5 huss (1050 vs 1000 resources) is like complete rape (3,4,5-0)
6 ulhans vs 5 huss (900 vs 1000 res) its always very close and can go either way
[span]
And that doesnt account for the extra 10%rr that ulhans have over huss.[/span]
You tried uhlan vs huss on nilla or TAD? H2o said 7 uhlan vs 5 huss is very even

doesnt really matter. nilla vs tad is quite the same, only difference is in ranged infantry vs cavalry really. all the other fights are the same (except for pathing perhaps being marginally worse in nilla... its pretty bad in tad too lol)

somehow 7 uhlan rape 5 huss pretty hard, but when its 10 huss vs 12-14 uhlan its pretty close somehow. its kinda strange

lukasl99 · Post by **lukasl99** » 27 May 2015, 15:52

ovi12 wrote:I think if germany had musk they would do a 10 musk 4 uhlan semi ff every game and it would be able to beat french. ATM it gets raped by french.

I don''t think Germany loses that hard vs French

musketjr · Post by **musketjr** » 27 May 2015, 16:15

calmyourtits wrote:
umeu wrote:ye 3sw shipment shouldnt come with uhlans.
FP did this and its a bad change. German shipments are supposed to be better than other civs because they get +2 uhlan. If wed nerf that shipment it would be nerfed to 5v instead of 3sw, not -2 uhlans.
But I think the way to fix Germans is an early game eco nerf. -1 vill +200f or -100f.

the shipments being strong is fine if they have a high cost. this patch has free tps so their shipments are relatively too good, so either tps have to cost something or the shipments should be nerfed. either way there is simply too much unbalanced stuff that it becomes irrelevant to point out each thing.

ESOC

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