Any basic Dutch build orders?

No Flag thebuckster1
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by thebuckster1 »

I play Dutch mainly, and I want to start improving how I play, and learn some build orders properly. I'm not a beginner but I'm not very good, so I would really appreciate any advice or good strategies for playing Dutch.

Thanks a lot
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No Flag Jaeger
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by Jaeger »

99% of games ship 3v>'bank wagon>'700w
Make a bank in transition to colonial. From the 400w make a stable and 2 houses, and try to get out 5 huss (can be hard, usually after you finish bank put 8 vills on gold and rest on food+new vills to food for 5 huss batch). If you're getting rushed you should be fine vs the first wave with 5 huss and minutemen, and for second wave build a rax from 700w and make some skirms and ship 8 pike if you need to. The BO stops after that, do whatever you need to but usually if you see a opportunity to age up, always take it. If you're not getting rushed and the enemy is going for fortress, add 1-2 more banks from 700w, make more huss if you want, ship 600w and age up either with 700g, 700f, or by just collecting up the resources, all depending on how much of a hurry you are. When you are in fortress, if you are not pressured ship 1k wood and get a lot of market upgrades, maybe a TP, maybe another bank.
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by benj89 »

my recommendation for nilla bo

- boom ff (4bank + hunting dog/placer mine): 700w/600w (for last bank/rax/stable)/ruyt/skirm). Important, 3 vill on wood to cover houses after 700w
never been a fan of 700w/700f 3 bank ff (since it doesn't make you age way faster than 700/600 and u end up with lower eco/housed), but that's an option

- semi cav: 700w 2-3bank (adapt from opponent and if u have time to gather for house)+ stable/8pike (you will most likely win vs the guy who semi without pike if u dont get fked by mm)/ then 600w or 700f depending if u win cav fight early

- ruyt/canon ff which can work with few halb added later, 700w/600w (gangsaw + wood gathering during transition)/1000c/ruyt

- semi skirm pike (which work well and underestimated I feel!): 1 bank age 1 then 8 pike /700w/ then adapt if 600w or 700f (the goal is to semi with 3 bank ideally so if u had to add pikes you'll need 600w and can 700f after)
In general you don't want stay age 2 with huss skirm/pike, but in some mu y not for a bit like vs bow pike. if the guy musk/huss go semi or you lose

but there is that bank wagon on tad which kinda change everything so :p

thats imo the basics dutch bo that works :)
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by _H2O »

It's 7 on gold otherwise nice
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by benj89 »

forgot smtg important to keep in mind when ff for ur macro: 1bank+1vill = constant vill prod
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by thebuckster1 »

Wow, thanks for so much great stuff! I'll make use of this for sure!
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by glorious_ »

benj89 wrote:my recommendation for nilla bo

- boom ff (4bank + hunting dog/placer mine): 700w/600w (for last bank/rax/stable)/ruyt/skirm). Important, 3 vill on wood to cover houses after 700w
never been a fan of 700w/700f 3 bank ff (since it doesn''t make you age way faster than 700/600 and u end up with lower eco/housed), but that''s an option

- semi cav: 700w 2-3bank (adapt from opponent and if u have time to gather for house)+ stable/8pike (you will most likely win vs the guy who semi without pike if u dont get fked by mm)/ then 600w or 700f depending if u win cav fight early

- ruyt/canon ff which can work with few halb added later, 700w/600w (gangsaw + wood gathering during transition)/1000c/ruyt

- semi skirm pike (which work well and underestimated I feel!): 1 bank age 1 then 8 pike /700w/ then adapt if 600w or 700f (the goal is to semi with 3 bank ideally so if u had to add pikes you''ll need 600w and can 700f after)
In general you don''t want stay age 2 with huss skirm/pike, but in some mu y not for a bit like vs bow pike. if the guy musk/huss go semi or you lose

but there is that bank wagon on tad which kinda change everything so :p

thats imo the basics dutch bo that works :)
imo good strats but in boom ff i wouldn''t 4 banks, I''d 3 banks and marctplace + upgrades.
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by Mimsy for President »

Don't send 8 pikemen, train them instead except in the last resort.
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by benj89 »

If I remember well you can 4 bank + HD/PM at 7.50. so you would sacrifice a bank just for steel trap and few more wood than you can easily gather anyway?
it depends but in general I would rather ship 8pike than making them, the wood ship are just to important for bank, I only make pike if I really need to.
I also forgot for me the best strat in mirror (lost a lot vs it) which is some semi FI kind of strat.
semi cav then 2-3canon/skirm/swiss (was smtg like 1000w/1000c-optional-/swiss/church) I think), then age4 with musk/church cav/HC. not to sure abt the bo I used to have it, but smooth in mirror. kind of have the same effect than japan mirror, you end up age4 while your opponent is still age3 with bit more skirm/ruyt and 2 culv
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by benj89 »

I mean if u skirm you have to ship pike you have no choice. either after 700w either before if aggressiv.
and in semi cav fight, you can see the mm/huss press coming vs your pike so you don't 100% lose them, and if you see that coming you basically win the cav fight + can win you the game. so if you win the cav fight without it good, but I don't think it's a wasted shipment in general, I consider it more as an essential one for dutch
and ofc going semi skirm pike home is op to
*I only think 4 bank ff is viable vs port, and still always better to cav semi vs them imo (except if the guy knows and go semi pike..)
anyway dutch by far one if not the most fun civ to play on nilla imo :). to bad they suck on tad
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by Garja »

The point of making banks is to make mines last longer and to get extra exp. So any bank vs villager/market dispute is pretty pointless.
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by Jaeger »

garja wrote:The point of making banks is to make mines last longer and to get extra exp. So any bank vs villager/market dispute is pretty pointless.
What about on mongolia where u have 5k mine in base?
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by Garja »

what would you do on mongolia
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by WickedCossack »

There's a pretty crisp 4 bank semi-FF with 5 hussar (option for a a couple more huss if needed) that is strong vs a number of the euro civs (Brits, French, Germany, Ports and Dutch mirror.) It's less effective vs the other civs general styles though.

3 vil/700w/Bankwagon/600w.

-Standard age 1. Age up with 400w.
-In transition gather wood/food for 1 bank and immediately pull all vils off wood after thats done putting the majority on food.
-With the 400w build a second bank. Ship 700w asap.
-When the 700w arrives build your third bank and stable and 2 houses. This costs 750 wood but you have 50 spare wood from the age up, so it works perfectly.
-I like to get the 3rd bank up even before starting the stables being super greedy but depending on the pace of the game you might want the stables first.
-Build 5 hussars and ship bank wagon (this is your 4th and final bank).
-Spar with your huss vs the enemies cav or vils.
-Ship 600w and age up to III. The 600w is to get your infastructure going, so adding more houses and a rax and possibly 2nd rax or 2nd stable. 99% of the time it's too long to wait for 1000w in which case the 600w is essential.

For 4 banks the fortress time is actually very good. You hit age 3 with good eco and good infastructure.
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Post by Goodspeed »

garja wrote:what would you do on mongolia
1. Mine the shit out of that 5k mine
2. Don''t even age, just mine that shit
3. Mine it hard
4. When it runs out, vill rush him
5. Don''t even get great coat, it costs food
6. ?
7. Win game
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Post by benj89 »

that's not the only point, you have to consider the overgathering effect, to many vills on a ress -->' you lose gathering time due to the movement to the next source (same reason why planta with 10v will gather less than planta with 7v proportionally).
it's quiet complex actually, consider also you can afford not to have too much gold early so rather base secure eco at this time (1 bank = 4.6 euro vill, not dutch, on gm no market up which is less good than classic 5v ship obviously, that's y I question the bank wagon card, but seems like dutch have no other option on tad), while mid game no constant op gold prod = lose. that's actually where dutch win most game
if u consider everything (+ the fact that bank can tank while vill go in tc/easily get raid since thats the focus on most early game fight, u can add walls, u have skirms age2 which means op def vs early press)
in the end bank early>'market upgrades (and I forgot some fact thats for sure)

Of course the whole reasoning is based on the civ (you cannot expend early etc), but as a objective pov bank aren't good, but if you take the context of dutch, making them early is I think their best option.
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Post by benj89 »

wickedcossack wrote:-I like to get the 3rd bank up even before starting the stables being super greedy but depending on the pace of the game you might want the stables first.

-Ship 600w and age up to III. The 600w is to get your infastructure going, so adding more houses and a rax and possibly 2nd rax or 2nd stable. 99% of the time it''s too long to wait for 1000w in which case the 600w is essential.

For 4 banks the fortress time is actually very good. You hit age 3 with good eco and good infastructure.
totally agree
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by musketjr »

shaolinstar wrote:Don''t send 8 pikemen, train them instead except in the last resort.
you''re right in theory about the card being bad but the reality is dutch gets pushed around in semi ff wars, and dutch needs to semi to win in most cases.

so, an early 8 pike is a useful backup option sometimes to try take the initiative. if you bank wagon first, you can 8pike after if you chop an extra 100w. i''ve definitely won games off of it.
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Post by Jaeger »

garja wrote:what would you do on mongolia
Well you said the main point of a bank is to make mines last longer and to get xp, and if market upgrades>'bank in terms of income (idk if they are, jut saying) can''t you go for vills/market ups instead of banks? You can make TP maybe if you want the xp too.
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by Marco1698 »

So between nilla and tad there are differences. For example on tad you have got wagon bank. On nilla i send 3v 700w 8pik or 3 huss depends from what type of units my opponent has and then 700f. From aging I take 350 wood and with 400 w which are on my Tc I make another bank. With 700w I make 3rd bank 2 houses and 1 barrack or stable still depends. 8 pikes or 3 huss with 5 schirms from the barrack or hussars from the stable. 700 food make you able to aging again. On Tad I send first bank wagon and then 700 wood.
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by Mitoe »

benj89 wrote:(same reason why planta with 10v will gather less than planta with 7v proportionally)
Isn''t this a myth? :S
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Post by Jaeger »

mitoe wrote:
benj89 wrote:(same reason why planta with 10v will gather less than planta with 7v proportionally)
Isnt this a myth? :S
http://eso-community.net/thread/772/plantation-10-vills-7-experiment
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by _venox_ »

garja wrote:The point of making banks is to make mines last longer and to get extra exp. So any bank vs villager/market dispute is pretty pointless.
It''s also a boom purpose: reinvesting your resources to get more resources. The more you can reinvest %-wise + the longer you can reinvest (boom capacity wise) the boomier the civ, generally speaking. It doesn''t matter if it''s an inefficient reinvestment or not, everybody got a town centre to build villagers from but not everybody can reinvest their resources into their economy as good. Banks are nice if pressured, take no population, are hard to kill, gather even when vills inside the tc or when walking to another resource. Thing is they don''t get much exp and are quite expensive' you can''t just build half a bank with half the resources which would net you more res in the end, so bank count is important. That''s my 2.75 coin per seconds (cents).
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Any basic Dutch build orders?

Post by kingandrey »

Just about everyone has quite similar BO and mine only has slight variance so I won't bother, however I feel 3x more comfortable with Dutch when I get a tp up
200w start chop 100 wood for house
Otherwise get during transition it's huge boost and you can get those banks out fast
I also am in love with semi 4 bank ff switch to halb with speed send plus falcs it's completely OP
Dutch can also easily get merc. For a ton of unit shipments in age 3, utilize this, as for market upgrades, bank>market any day so invest in banks first

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