Plantation 10 vills vs 7 vills experiment

benj89 · Post by **benj89** » 29 May 2015, 00:15

and I've read couple time 6 was actually better, but as said on the link, only 0.09, so close to nothing

Cometk · Post by **Cometk** » 29 May 2015, 00:21

the only realistic score you can hope to achieve with germany in tr40 (after killing your uhlans and vills to make a viable composition for fighting) is 2500-2650. a boom of 3600 is absolutely ludicrous. that's 100k extra resources. that shit is just impossible to pull off online. even with british 15% plantation and aztec 3v/20% wood-chopping team cards, you wouldn't be able to hit higher than 2800.

this was the stuff treaty players believed was standard in 2009-2011. goes to show how dated some of our aoe3 resources are. even in a treaty guide for france i posted about two years ago i was using northwest passage. with the i have knowledge now, it's sad seeing myself spread misinformation.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 29 May 2015, 01:31

benj89 wrote:if you don''t read the thread we give you the conv is useless
your last question is answered in the link cometk gave you
for your previous post, again everything is answered on the link I gave you. it''s not "everyone agrees", it''s the optimal number (the biggest diff in proportion to vill/ress gathered).

I already told you in the other thread that I wasn''t able to download that document

benj89 · Post by **benj89** » 29 May 2015, 02:21

I'm talking about this link that I included in my previous post:
aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,27080,,all
(just have to copy paste until the "all")

deleted_user0 · Post by **deleted_user0** » 29 May 2015, 07:59

ovi12 wrote:
umeu wrote:oh god... not this discussion again. its just a myth created by superstitious treaty players... like they actually think that fre villagers with the speed upgrade card (north-west passage or something) gather faster...

http://www.ageofempires.com/Forums/yaf_ ... ats.aspx?=

nubzzz
Lol did you read the thread? I was trying to debunk that myth here not promote it

i know you were. but its stupid the myth is still out there, it was debunked a year ago. and probably also several times before that.

deleted_user0 · Post by **deleted_user0** » 29 May 2015, 08:05

benj89 wrote:umeu has no clue of what he is talking about. (it''s not they gather faster for the vills, it''s since they move faster they go from ress to ress faster -->' gather more. still not worth it, but it shows you just don''t understand basic logic, or just read some post of someone who was limited.)
but it has never been a myth for the 7v10vill (bumping factor)
ovi12 you didn''t do the experiment correctly, I just quickly read and other stuff to think abt, or it was patched since it was proven and I have no clue about it
no it is not worth it in the end unless very long game because of the cost of plantation (at what time it is worth it could be calculated I guess).
http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/for ... ion=ct&amp'f=1,27080,,all

i know exactly what im talking about. the card doesnt work because its just an animation. the vils dont actually move, when they are on a mill... its JUST AN ANIMATION. hence the fucking card makes 0 difference and vil bumping isnt a thing. just like the mosque or cows, when it shows it gives u 25 xp, it doesnt actually give u 25 xp, it just means that until that point, 25xp has been gathered by the cow or mosque. it actually gives u a small trickle all the time. not like a tp, which only gives when the cart passes.

it thus only shows you have no idea what i was talking about and didnt read the link, because there i made all of that clear. that for TREATY its a useless card, the card only pays of when there is natural res, because then u have to move between res, but on a fucking plantation u dont move... but even for supremacy the card pays off so little, that any other card is better.

whatever difference comes from 7 to 10 vils is most likely due to best test enviroment or due to lag. because it is true that lag makes units stop, so their calculations are stopped i guess.

Cometk · Post by **Cometk** » 29 May 2015, 08:32

umeu wrote:
benj89 wrote:umeu has no clue of what he is talking about. (its not they gather faster for the vills, its since they move faster they go from ress to ress faster -->' gather more. still not worth it, but it shows you just dont understand basic logic, or just read some post of someone who was limited.)
but it has never been a myth for the 7v10vill (bumping factor)
ovi12 you didnt do the experiment correctly, I just quickly read and other stuff to think abt, or it was patched since it was proven and I have no clue about it
no it is not worth it in the end unless very long game because of the cost of plantation (at what time it is worth it could be calculated I guess).
http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/for ... ion=ct&amp'f=1,27080,,all
i know exactly what im talking about. the card doesnt work because its just an animation. the vils dont actually move, when they are on a mill... its JUST AN ANIMATION. hence the fucking card makes 0 difference and vil bumping isnt a thing. just like the mosque or cows, when it shows it gives u 25 xp, it doesnt actually give u 25 xp, it just means that until that point, 25xp has been gathered by the cow or mosque. it actually gives u a small trickle all the time. not like a tp, which only gives when the cart passes.

it thus only shows you have no idea what i was talking about and didnt read the link, because there i made all of that clear. that for TREATY its a useless card, the card only pays of when there is natural res, because then u have to move between res, but on a fucking plantation u dont move... but even for supremacy the card pays off so little, that any other card is better.

whatever difference comes from 7 to 10 vils is most likely due to best test enviroment or due to lag. because it is true that lag makes units stop, so their calculations are stopped i guess.

this is fundamentally wrong. vills are moving while on the mills. you simply need to go into a custom game, build a mill and put one villager on it. while the villager is moving around the mill as tasked to it, your food count will not update. i agree with you that the bonus of northwest passage is so negligible that its not a card worth sending. but you have the wrong idea of how mills/plants work.

benj89 · Post by **benj89** » 29 May 2015, 08:38

I never said the card made any difference when applied to mill/planta (rest is off topic)
Vill bumping is obviously a thing and I highly doubt it's just an animation, when during 2 years everyone who tested the game and tried to analyze any date of it came to the same conclusion. So as I said, unless it has been patched and is now a pure animation, I highly doubt, only believing the people who tried it, and never saw any serious comment denying it.

I actually read one page of your link (I always check link, tells a lot abt a response), not all, and I again I NEVER claimed northwestern was useful for anything else than natural resources in term of gathering (I actually never did research on that, so considered as absurd which is apparently not)! at least your right I didn't get your reference as a myth abt this card, but that's not the point of the thread.
Is it my fault if harcha is convinced of a wrong statement? that's the exception I was talking about, and my arrogant comment was in response to your analogy of one guy saying this = the rest must myth also which is obviously bs.

In the end, I rather believe 3-4 people which I read most posts on websites, who have a serious logical reasoning and understanding of the game, than one Umeu post or Ovi12. Again, a serious test which would prove the opposite (no offense ovi12, but you proved that your reasoning is sometimes limited). If you do one, like on video, I would be glad to change my mind. (the whole time I was talking about 7v vs 10, not the card, and you totally understood it --)

Oh, and I just read the whole thread, "but imo thats just another myth" is your only explanation and you end up having nothing else to bring.
And as metis explained the term for nortwestern passage, statistical non significance obviously doesn't apply to bumping.
oh, and last, should I quote your last comment ?
"even if bumping is actually a thing, which it seems to be, for whatever reason nwp doesnt affect it."
so your previous comment was just a try to change the subject and I just spent 2min writing for nothing. thanks dude

benj89 · Post by **benj89** » 29 May 2015, 08:42

so your source is irrelevant since you end up approving that bumping is a thing, and now you say that bumping is a myth and "prove" it with a link that shows you say the opposite.
Jesus

deleted_user0 · Post by **deleted_user0** » 29 May 2015, 08:56

benj89 wrote:I never said the card made any difference when applied to mill/planta (rest is off topic)
Vill bumping is obviously a thing and I highly doubt it''s just an animation, when during 2 years everyone who tested the game and tried to analyze any date of it came to the same conclusion. So as I said, unless it has been patched and is now a pure animation, I highly doubt, only believing the people who tried it, and never saw any serious comment denying it.

I actually read one page of your link (I always check link, tells a lot abt a response), not all, and I again I NEVER claimed northwestern was useful for anything else than natural resources in term of gathering (I actually never did research on that, so considered as absurd which is apparently not)! at least your right I didn''t get your reference as a myth abt this card, but that''s not the point of the thread.
Is it my fault if harcha is convinced of a wrong statement? that''s the exception I was talking about, and my arrogant comment was in response to your analogy of one guy saying this = the rest must myth also which is obviously bs.

In the end, I rather believe 3-4 people which I read most posts on websites, who have a serious logical reasoning and understanding of the game, than one Umeu post or Ovi12. Again, a serious test which would prove the opposite (no offense ovi12, but you proved that your reasoning is sometimes limited). If you do one, like on video, I would be glad to change my mind. (the whole time I was talking about 7v vs 10, not the card, and you totally understood it --)

Oh, and I just read the whole thread, "but imo thats just another myth" is your only explanation and you end up having nothing else to bring.
And as metis explained the term for nortwestern passage, statistical non significance obviously doesn''t apply to bumping.
oh, and last, should I quote your last comment ?
"even if bumping is actually a thing, which it seems to be, for whatever reason nwp doesnt affect it."
so your previous comment was just a try to change the subject and I just spent 2min writing for nothing. thanks dude

WTF? u didnt have to say that, because I said treaty players believed that (which the link i posted shows that...). so u are off topic... stop being ridiculous benj...

the link was never supposed to be about fucking bumping. it was supposed to be about NWP. in any case, bumping is fucking irrelevant, even if it ever was a thing, which i doubt, since the percentages are so small its most likely due to other factors.

i dont see what is wrong with my logic, so why are you being so insulting and arrogant. you always come in, say people have bad logic, post a terribly dense and incomprehensible post and then say i dont speak about this anymore... honestly, its getting old.

benj89 · Post by **benj89** » 29 May 2015, 08:59

5am here so I over react, but the point of the topic was simple:
7v gather faster than 10v proportionally on mills/planta. Do you deny that bumping exist?
if yes, I would love to change my mind, just prove it

deleted_user0 · Post by **deleted_user0** » 29 May 2015, 09:01

u know damn well nobody cba to run 100 tests for this shit. hence its always the same shit being rehashed.

treaty player game is so full of bs myths, that i wouldnt be suprised bumping is one of them. it just makes no fucking sense. if it somehow is a thing, the difference is so small it doesnt even matter. as if on 500k res, 5k gonna mean shit.

benj89 · Post by **benj89** » 29 May 2015, 09:06

how come the percentage are so small and due to other factor since people who tested it showed a graduation in gather rate (1v gather faster than 2v, which gather faster than 3v etc). If It is was due to other factors, there wouldn't be any graduation observed. and if the link was supposed to be abt NWP, then it doesn't apply in any way to the bumping factor, since the percentage diff are big enough to be observed by a decent amount of people, and never denied.

benj89 · Post by **benj89** » 29 May 2015, 09:10

the thread isn't about it's whether it's significant or not, it's about is it a myth or not. the answer is simple, no it's not. nobody did 100 test, but when several people come to the same conclusion and nobody come to deny it, I tend to believe them than someone who simply doubt.
anyway have a good day
*about your logic, excuse me but the analogy you did with treaty players and the relevance of bumping wasn't the smartest.. and my arrogance was only used to point this out
**Actually, I checked DrLegend profile few days ago since someone called him dragonlegend, saw that he posted 9500ish comments on another forum, and I realized any discussion with him would require a proof for each argument and would potentially be denied or reformulated. That's why since then I come out with the "I'm out of this I don't have time", because the guy is paid by the government or someone else to write in off topics forum and I'm not.

Cometk · Post by **Cometk** » 29 May 2015, 09:32

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6c3HjDMBnU&']villagers walking around the mill is not "just" an animation. they are not gathering resources while they are doing it.[/url]

Post by **edeholland** » 29 May 2015, 09:41

I don't really like your methode, since the display only updates every few seconds, meaning that it might be possible to gather while walking. You should calculate the amount of resources/second, and see if that is differnent when they start walking. I am not quite sure what the "all resources gathered" graph means in this game.

Goodspeed · Post by **Goodspeed** » 29 May 2015, 09:46

benj89 wrote:**Actually, I checked DrLegend profile few days ago since someone called him dragonlegend, saw that he posted 9500ish comments on another forum, and I realized any discussion with him would require a proof for each argument and would potentially be denied or reformulated. That''s why since then I come out with the "I''m out of this I don''t have time", because the guy is paid by the government or someone else to write in off topics forum and I''m not.

Lol I can see why you came to that conclusion. It does explain his major buzzkilling and constant repetition of the same delusional shit.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 29 May 2015, 09:46

Ye it's like the mills has some gathering spots and vills start collecting resources while they work there, just like berries.

Cometk · Post by **Cometk** » 29 May 2015, 09:51

edeholland wrote:I don''t really like your methode, since the display only updates every few seconds, meaning that it might be possible to gather while walking. You should calculate the amount of resources/second, and see if that is differnent when they start walking. I am not quite sure what the "all resources gathered" graph means in this game.

if i had the resources (not windows fucking moviemaker) i would''ve counted the time between each update on the food count. something weird to notice: when the villager is on his knees, the food-count updates in blocks of 3 or 4 food, whereas when he is standing and spreading seeds they update in blocks of 1 or 2.

for the most part though, it was observed that there was a pause in the food-count updating while the villager was walking, which suggests that he doesn''t gather food whilst walking...

Post by **edeholland** » 29 May 2015, 09:55

[video src="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2_f0C1klVU&'feature=youtu.be"][/video]
[table][tbody][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]Time[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]Res at this point[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]Res since last point[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]Frames since last point[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]Res/frame since last point[/td][/tr][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]15:23[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]270[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][/tr][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]19:21[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]538[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]268[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]118[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]2.42[/td][/tr][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]Walked[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][/tr][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]25:07[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]829[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]291[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]166[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]1.75[/td][/tr][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]29:13[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]1119[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]290[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]126[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]2.30[/td][/tr][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]33:21[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]1409[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]290[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]128[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]2.27[/td][/tr][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]Walked[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][/tr][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]41:15[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]1700[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]291[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]234[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]1.24[/td][/tr][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]45:24[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]1990[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]290[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]129[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]1.62[/td][/tr][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]50:10[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]2280[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]290[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]136[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]1.53[/td][/tr][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]Walked[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]
[/td][/tr][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]58:20[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]2548[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]268[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]250[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]1.07[/td][/tr][tr][td style="padding:3px'"]1:02:16[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]2816[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]268[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]116[/td][td style="padding:3px'"]2.31[/td][/tr][/tbody][/table]

Post by **edeholland** » 29 May 2015, 09:57

cometk wrote:
edeholland wrote:I dont really like your methode, since the display only updates every few seconds, meaning that it might be possible to gather while walking. You should calculate the amount of resources/second, and see if that is differnent when they start walking. I am not quite sure what the "all resources gathered" graph means in this game.
if i had the resources (not windows fucking moviemaker) i wouldve counted the time between each update on the food count. something weird to notice: when the villager is on his knees, the food-count updates in blocks of 3 or 4 food, whereas when he is standing and spreading seeds they update in blocks of 1 or 2.

for the most part though, it was observed that there was a pause in the food-count updating while the villager was walking, which suggests that he doesnt gather food whilst walking...

Thats exactly what I have done

Cometk · Post by **Cometk** » 29 May 2015, 10:08

thank you, well put-together. it suggests the same as mine' vills don't gather while walking.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 29 May 2015, 12:42

benj89 wrote:(no offense ovi12, but you proved that your reasoning is sometimes limited). If you do one, like on video, I would be glad to change my mind. (the whole time I was talking about 7v vs 10, not the card, and you totally understood it --)

Lol that''s your opinion, I was wrong on the livestock thread but on strelet vs mace thread I just stopped responding because it'' too much work tring to convince you, no offense.

benj89 · Post by **benj89** » 29 May 2015, 16:44

nice work edeholland, and I think it also shows that the experiment would have to be done with a large number of mills and take the average, and this several time :p

richard · Post by **richard** » 29 May 2015, 19:57

Hi Folks,

another thing to mention: Even if every villager you have is tasked on a mill/plantation, the idle villager graph in the postgame doesnt say that you had no idle villagers during that period of time. This leads to the assumption that vills dont gather while theyre moving on mills/plantations. But of course, this isnt a proof. It depends on the implementation of the game. Could be, or could not be...

Btw: This is different from the rice paddies the asian civs have. In that case, the idle vill graph in the post game shows exactly 0 idle villagers if theyre tasked on a paddy. And theyre never moving on it ...

Bye,
KingRichard

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