China builds

[[Armag] diarouga]

Dragoons would make china even more op. They are totally fine as they are now.

Chinese''s ff is super strong, you can hold it because you know what''s coming but if they also have age 2 timings it becomes op.

[Durokan]

It isn''t really anticav they lack, it''s cav, and eco shipments. I could see age2 goons fixing their problems though, not because that''s what they need but because age2 goons are really strong.
Why? Is this an actual idea about how to fix the civ or just theorizing to reach a better understanding of it?

Both, I''m not modding anything though.

Edit: Does china lose really hard to Germany? In addition, when playing Germany against China would you do 7 cav semi or would you mass uhlans in age two?

[deleted_user0]

It isn''t really anticav they lack, it''s cav, and eco shipments. I could see age2 goons fixing their problems though, not because that''s what they need but because age2 goons are really strong.
Why? Is this an actual idea about how to fix the civ or just theorizing to reach a better understanding of it?

Imagine 5 or 10 goon semi tho, with the 8 skir wonder... Would be pretty nice

[Goodspeed]

Well it would be a poor change in many ways, mostly because it takes a massive dump on the civ design. Anyway, any change to China should not improve their fortress potential, it should only touch their strength in colonial.

[Durokan]

It isnt really anticav they lack, its cav, and eco shipments. I could see age2 goons fixing their problems though, not because thats what they need but because age2 goons are really strong.
Why? Is this an actual idea about how to fix the civ or just theorizing to reach a better understanding of it?

Imagine 5 or 10 goon semi tho, with the 8 skir wonder... Would be pretty nice

[img]http://i.imgur.com/uqJMhYA.png[/img]
Also what is the best way to get a player to play germany against china? A goon semi would thrash germanys semi

Age two native warrior from Apache TP - 90f 90g, 0 population

[img]http://i.imgur.com/R7lWv2x.png[/img]

Age two dragoon from early team dragoons, 90f 90g, 2 population
[img]http://i.imgur.com/PodmGhc.png[/img]

I would like to point out that a TP costs the same as a stable had it been a stable semi-ff. Apache cavalry can also get a villager bonus in age 3. This makes bow riders incredibly OP, something that the apache nation could rise to.

Check out this thread for more info http://eso-community.net/thread/905/eso ... e-analysis

[edeholland]

Only being able to train 8 or 9 is very significant though.

[Durokan]

Only being able to train 8 or 9 is very significant though.

5/8 goon semi and then transition into normal china fortress stuff? I don''t really have the china know how to be able to devise a super high level strategy, but I will make two recordings tonight when I get home and build orders for what I have been thinking. I had only been thinking about a colonial food/wood economy on Indochina with the jesuit temple, ie chukonus, steppe riders or pikes (to be determined), and jesuit dragoons. The Jesuits do less damage though, 51 vs 66 against cav (Conquistador vs dragoon) You get 12 though, once again they do not cost population. This build might use the resource generating wonder(main thought)/maybe even vills wonder, or if not then the normal 400f wonder. Umeu mentioned a goon semi-ff which I hadn''t been thinking about, but it sounds really good, atleast in my limited experience.

Something to take note of, there is a discussion I have heard of where people argue whether to go 1 house 1 xp tp or 2 house no xp tp with china. Going 1 house one native tp is similar to the 2 house build because natives don''t cost population, but building the maximum limit of them is similar to having built a second house and using the population from it to fund the dragoons. IE a house will support 10 dragoons worth of population, but 10 native goons costs no population. It takes a native trading post to "support their population". This houselike structure also trains them, a benefit normal houses do not have. The point being a player can get away with less having less houses and building the native TP instead because the natives are self sufficient and do not cost population. The only thing about this comparison is it falls apart a little bit once players start researching numerous village upgrades.

[Goodspeed]

The second house is for the 3rd vill from northern refugees, the pop is just a bonus.
Apache semi sounds nice in theory but China still has the problem of not getting any eco shipments in age2. The strength of a semi-FF is generally that it ages up with a decent eco.

[Durokan]

The second house is for the 3rd vill from northern refugees, the pop is just a bonus.
Apache semi sounds nice in theory but China still has the problem of not getting any eco shipments in age2. The strength of a semi-FF is generally that it ages up with a decent eco.

Thats why I was thinking of using the porcelain tower or whatever it is called to age, 3 resources a second is like having 5 vills on gold or 6 on wood. That is a pretty big eco jump. I am by no means a high level player, but I will look into it more in depth tonight. I do not have access to the game right now (for a few hours) and I am just browsing the forums with what I know off of the top of my head.

If you use the tower to generate food it takes ~2:10 to generate the 400 food from the other wonder, just a thought. I would rather use it to generate gold or wood to fund my dragoon/crossbow army though.

[deleted_user0]

U shouldnt use the tower in age2, its bonus p/s is as much as the palace when it pops an army. To age3 tho its supergood so thats where a chinese semi would get its eco i guess. And i suppose 300exp can count as eco, but ye its true, its not a very eco heavy semi

[Durokan]

U shouldnt use the tower in age2, its bonus p/s is as much as the palace when it pops an army. To age3 tho its supergood so thats where a chinese semi would get its eco i guess. And i suppose 300exp can count as eco, but ye its true, its not a very eco heavy semi

What do you think of aging to age II with tower, age III with 6 vill wonder? This is just something that randomly popped into my head. Maybe the other way around? This is pretty eco heavy. I will crunch some numbers later to figure out which build is better at certain timings.

[deleted_user0]

Dont like either because the bonus is too small to make a difference. Summer palace on old han is better than both those two in colonial because it also gives 400f. 6 vils to age3 is decent but 8 is still better and tower cant really be raided and switched at will.

[Durokan]

Dont like either because the bonus is too small to make a difference. Summer palace on old han is better than both those two in colonial because it also gives 400f. 6 vils to age3 is decent but 8 is still better and tower cant really be raided and switched at will.

Hmm. Will do numbers later, surely the heal on the vill wonder can''t be passed up. It can save soldiers that are almost dead if you are trading, It might be a sleeper OP thing, maybe not. Will test tonight, this conversation in very helpful btw

[deleted_user0]

It would be fine if u could use it more often than every 5 min. And usually soldiers die 1 after another. When you are trading in such low numbers that u can micro wounded ones back such as 5 huss or 10usk mirror its a bigger adv to have 6 more units than save like 3 with heal

I dont think thats a good bonus tbh.

[Durokan]

It would be fine if u could use it more often than every 5 min. And usually soldiers die 1 after another. When you are trading in such low numbers that u can micro wounded ones back such as 5 huss or 10usk mirror its a bigger adv to have 6 more units than save like 3 with heal

I dont think thats a good bonus tbh.

That makes alot of sense. Ty. Will still look into it anyways.

[Durokan]

Food for thought - this stuff might not be as good as i think dragoons are, but it might work. I don't know if it will reduce the fortress power too much or if its good eco
300export for semi-ff eco build

French consulate for 5% vill rate + crates
crates cost 250ex
[strike]
German Consulate for cheaper banner armies and trickles, possibly dopps as well for when backed into a corner
german trickles take 6 minutes 40 seconds to break even with a french 500 crate shipment, both cost 250ex
the trickle wont be that good unless it is acquired very early in colonial. [/strike]Germans dont get wood trickle until age 3, Gold in age 4. Food trickle is almost worthless

British consulate - 10% unit hp
6 musktets + 9 musk intervention
No eco to be had here but intervention (card) is really good

In a semi one would switch to brit in transition for the intervention in fortress if a non british route is taken in colonial. The germans or french might be better in a pure colonial style of play.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Intersting build. To be tested!

[yemshi]

Remeber that you get the 1.5 food trickle in 2nd 1.25 wood trickle in 3rd and the 1.25 coin trickle in 4th.
French seems quite good, though I personally prefer having my Muskets (Brits) out faster' So I'd stick to standard FF. What about TP +300 (375 with later ally) Export for musks/petards?

[Durokan]

Remeber that you get the 1.5 food trickle in 2nd 1.25 wood trickle in 3rd and the 1.25 coin trickle in 4th.
French seems quite good, though I personally prefer having my Muskets (Brits) out faster' So I''d stick to standard FF. What about TP +300 (375 with later ally) Export for musks/petards?

Oh, I didnt know that about germans. That sucks. If you missed the conversation, this is about getting more eco into a dragoon semi ff for china to either be standard play on indochina/baja california or to bait out a cav civ as a pocket strategy

[zoom]

A hussar costs 276.2 VS since I used no market ups for the iron flails and meteor hammers aswell and the upgrade is 733.3 extra VS...
1 meteor + 1 flail have together about 20% more hitpoints (vs ranged) and about 30% more dmg (vs inf it''s over 60%), disregarding the 5 range and the bonus vs artillery costing only 4% more' This ofc compared to colonial hussars. If compared to veteran hussars the hitpoints are about even and the dmg still 10% higher and over 40% vs inf disregarding the 5 range and the art multiplier, but the veterancy upgrade is worth about 2.5 of the chinese fortress cav.

Most of what you''re claiming in your posts about IF/MH is just plainly false (I would suggest looking at their stats again), and Hussars not upgrading is negligible. In fact, when taking into consideration that it also entails their availability from a whole Age earlier, it''s just another argument in favor of Hussars.

[zoom]

Nah thats just bs. U cant hold an all in russia rush with just that. Specially if aging tower

Bullshit indeed. Chinese doing a straight FF can''t hold any half-decent rush without taking considerable damage in the process.

[zoom]

Dragoons would make china even more op. They are totally fine as they are now.

Dragoons would make them more powerful indeed. They are totally broken as they are now though...

[iNcog]

zoom zoom what about machus

[zoom]

[quote source="/post/12674/thread" timestamp="1433292763" author="@h2o"][quote source="/post/11938/thread" timestamp="1432996442" author="@zoom"]1. Please define "this group".
2. Your understanding doesn't differ from any other half-decent player's one, AFAIK.
[/quote]This group is the people who usually post in these threads, could replace that with the word meta. They won't have this level of detail on hand, and they would recommend using the 8 skirm and flying crow wonder, sending 8 ckn would be an option to them. Honestly its not an option for me.

Aging up with tower is 8 vils on wood. Its superior to the other wonder. I age up with it every game, take a look at my previous streams and see how much pressure I hold.

I would disagree with that comment, but that not really important.

Here is the detail i promised earlier, after some testing I have a much better idea of exact timings and tried to detail what i have in my memory in the form of a free flow list. If someone wants to take this and write it up for the strategy wall that would be cool. Also more than willing to explain in detail why I won't send 8 ckn and also why I won't make any batches other than sword skirm and cav along with any other firm rules I have.

[ul type="disc"][li]5 Vils on food, build a house, put goat on it immediately. House should be positioned near second gold and tc with small gap between tc for walking[/li][li]All future vils go to wood, chop to 200 wood for second house[/li][li]2nd house goes near another patch of resources, just as close to tc as the first[/li][li]Make vils until 17[/li][li]On 17 vils, pull goat off of the house (~140 food on goat) eat it with 3-4 vils that are on a hunt thats about to run out[/li][li]Age up with 17 vils, then queue 18th[/li][li]Age up with summer palace, only one vil starts, then task 3 more to it[/li][li]Once the 18th vil is started, make sure 2nd hunt is herded under tc and put 4 vils on gold (The goal is 380 mined gold[/li][li]Once you get up (~21 Vils) put 1 vil on food crates, the other 3 go to food[/li][li]Change wonder to xbow pike always[/li][li]Queue 700 gold, 700 wood as you get the exp[/li][li]Make sure you stop mining gold at 380 gold, you are targeting 1200 food with constant vil production[/li][li]When 700 gold arrives put 5 vils on the 500 crate, 1 vil on each 100 crate.[/li][li]Drop procelen tower with one vil close to your base, have your explorer and disciple in base[/li][li]Carefully call the pike minutes to make sure you can cleanly gather to drop your wonder. [/li][li]Once the wonder is dropped put 6-7 on gold (The balance will vary if you get harassed because you may be belling vils. Make sure you get to 160 food 160 gold for both minutes[/li][li]When 700 wood comes in drop a tp, rax, market, consolate all in a building wall setup close to tc[/li][li]Before you get up you will likely have to defend, so its hard to say what you will be able to train[/li][li]General rule: cav batch >' skirm sword batch[/li][li]Send the 9 musket card and ally with british[/li][li]Set tower to wood[/li][li]Drop next house when you get to 200 wood (if you fight a lot then get market ups)[/li][li]Keep making units as possible, always try to keep 5 discp ready[/li][li]5 Meteor, 10 skirm ( 11 sword or manchu depending if you end up needing anti cav badly)[/li][li]Dont forget your about to have 400 export when you click the 3rd fortress shipment[/li][li]At 90 house pop you can start using the house tech to improve pop space if you are not ready to drop a house[/li][li]If you build houses after that you get 25 pop each, so its better to build them[/li][/ul][/quote]Depending on what strategy you wish to emply, Confucian Academy is not "worse" than Porcelain Tower' it's different. Both wonders are very strong. Sending Colonial Age unit shipments is hardly ideal, but it may be a necessity when you're being fisted alive at 5:30. However, a Chinese straight-ff cannot survive any decent rush and find itself in a winning position without severely outplaying the opponent.

Finally, I did look at every single one of your Chinese games on the Twitch past broadcasts. Not a single one of your opponents played an optimal build against a Chinese FF.

[iNcog]

well i hope if you're fisting someone they actually are alive


i kind of like H20's build, i've been learning it a bit and yeah the economy you get from the tower is ridiculous. you can have 0 vills on wood and just make houses houses and after a bit you get enough wood for a TC (assuming you trade units, which i think china should). it's especially good if you're facing a semi, since the semi won't pressure you enough to warrant the need of 10 skirms on age up.

then again perhaps i haven't played anyone yet who has been pushing into my base between 6 and 9 minutes.