Is rushing in AOE3 dead?

[gibson]

yea rush is dead on tad because the players are better and rushing is mostly bad

there isn't the right way. In some MU u have to rush, other pressing other ff. The rush is dead becouse players skills now are low compared to years ago.

ofc its completely mu dependent, but in like 75%+ of MUs rushing doesnt work, and its not because players skills are low, its because they're higher lol. Especially on most EP maps where you can have 3 hunts in your base rushing can't really work because defenders advantage is too big. Especially in the past year or two people have started defending with vils which you I don't remember seeing before.

[Hazza54321]

How can you adapt when your opponent places Agra on your next hunt?

i guess doing an early timing to regain map control, and do things such as send 700f to sustain ur hunts longer, and age 500f if your brits etc...
you might have to do an early timing then normal so lets say brits vs india instead of a 9-11min timing more like and 8-10 or even earlier for example

[Jaeger]

well killing the agra is a matter of how many units you have and technique. Also it depends a little on where the Agra is placed. The agra itself is not much different from any other 5k hp building.

Except that it does damage, it can pop unit shipments, it can train units, and it can pop mm

[gibson]

It's not really the fact that the agra does damage that makes it good, it's the fact that you can pop 16 units from it at the same time

[pecelot]

Agra in many ways is rather similar to a TC, but you don't really siege TC, do you...
Ofc killing Agra or pushing v India is not impossible, but certainly tough in most cases, especially in with possible lack of hunts.

[deuxballesman]

It's not really the fact that the agra does damage that makes it good, it's the fact that you can pop 16 units from it at the same time

Why only 16? Dream bigger 10 tiger claws + 5 Gurkhas (or sepoys your choice ) + 6mm= a nice Aizamk style timed pop !

[DaRkNiTe1698]

well killing the agra is a matter of how many units you have and technique. Also it depends a little on where the Agra is placed. The agra itself is not much different from any other 5k hp building.

Except that it does damage, it can pop unit shipments, it can train units, and it can pop mm

Then it's much different

[Jaeger]

It's not really the fact that the agra does damage that makes it good, it's the fact that you can pop 16 units from it at the same time

Well you can't ignore the damage completely, it's only 25 but with splash it might be like 50+ depending on how splash works. Plus I think it may have a higher ROF than a TC (not sure)

[Garja]

That's exactly why it is a matter of how many units you have and tecnique. Need enough unirs to cover shipments+mm+trained units+on field units and right tecnique so that the theoretical amount of needed units is also the actual one.

[r4go]

yea rush is dead on tad because the players are better and rushing is mostly bad

there isn't the right way. In some MU u have to rush, other pressing other ff. The rush is dead becouse players skills now are low compared to years ago.

ofc its completely mu dependent, but in like 75%+ of MUs rushing doesnt work, and its not because players skills are low, its because they're higher lol. Especially on most EP maps where you can have 3 hunts in your base rushing can't really work because defenders advantage is too big. Especially in the past year or two people have started defending with vils which you I don't remember seeing before.

I mean the skills of players now are low if comparated to the past years. Before there was great pro. Well as i've said in more the one threads. Eso maps have killed rush whit their op res in base. Anyway rush is a big concept. Rush all in ofc will not works, expecially 1-1. But rush as i mean (costant pressing, broking eco,push) work a lot. 1-1 when u go for semi 5 huss and raid, this is a rush, not all in, but rush as costant pressing. Rush all in as never work on levels capt +++. Rush fast, pressing work and is the better way in a lot of mu. Now i see ppl play tr no 10 vs jap or china while they are brits or french. Expecially in team games there is not a big strategy. Just no units before 8 minutes, all boom, then the civs whit better eco win

[DaRkNiTe1698]

Rush is just bad like gibson said, it won't ever work vs a good player, on a good map. Many old top players are worse than current top players, that's why you can't learn anything from old recorded games. Rushing can work until 1lt or so, a bit more maybe, but definitely won't work at pr 30up level. Irish thinks this too, and I fully agree with him (rush is bad on aoe3 since you can garrison vills, repair damaged buildings etc.)

[Jaeger]

Show hidden quotes

yea rush is dead on tad because the players are better and rushing is mostly bad

there isn't the right way. In some MU u have to rush, other pressing other ff. The rush is dead becouse players skills now are low compared to years ago.

ofc its completely mu dependent, but in like 75%+ of MUs rushing doesnt work, and its not because players skills are low, its because they're higher lol. Especially on most EP maps where you can have 3 hunts in your base rushing can't really work because defenders advantage is too big. Especially in the past year or two people have started defending with vils which you I don't remember seeing before.

I mean the skills of players now are low if comparated to the past years. Before there was great pro. Well as i've said in more the one threads. Eso maps have killed rush whit their op res in base. Anyway rush is a big concept. Rush all in ofc will not works, expecially 1-1. But rush as i mean (costant pressing, broking eco,push) work a lot. 1-1 when u go for semi 5 huss and raid, this is a rush, not all in, but rush as costant pressing. Rush all in as never work on levels capt +++. Rush fast, pressing work and is the better way in a lot of mu. Now i see ppl play tr no 10 vs jap or china while they are brits or french. Expecially in team games there is not a big strategy. Just no units before 8 minutes, all boom, then the civs whit better eco win

Well why do you think the old players were better? We have h2o who is the best or one of the best old players, and we have many people that can beat him sometimes in some games. Doesn't that mean the players are good?

[Garja]

The competition is lax now. You don't have months of grinding one MU or one civ in preparation for a tourney. Also you can count the number of good players on the finger of your hands and information is so spread that it's rather easy to improve quickly. Just as an example since it was mentioned in this thread, nowadays you see many players using vills in fights which is something learnt on forums or from streams of other games. And like that many other tricks that nowadays are common even at mid level.

As for rushing, it is mostly due to EP maps that are overly protective. It's not a coincidence that nowadays you see players using mm efficiently even vs cav.

[r4go]

Show hidden quotes

yea rush is dead on tad because the players are better and rushing is mostly bad

there isn't the right way. In some MU u have to rush, other pressing other ff. The rush is dead becouse players skills now are low compared to years ago.

ofc its completely mu dependent, but in like 75%+ of MUs rushing doesnt work, and its not because players skills are low, its because they're higher lol. Especially on most EP maps where you can have 3 hunts in your base rushing can't really work because defenders advantage is too big. Especially in the past year or two people have started defending with vils which you I don't remember seeing before.

I mean the skills of players now are low if comparated to the past years. Before there was great pro. Well as i've said in more the one threads. Eso maps have killed rush whit their op res in base. Anyway rush is a big concept. Rush all in ofc will not works, expecially 1-1. But rush as i mean (costant pressing, broking eco,push) work a lot. 1-1 when u go for semi 5 huss and raid, this is a rush, not all in, but rush as costant pressing. Rush all in as never work on levels capt +++. Rush fast, pressing work and is the better way in a lot of mu. Now i see ppl play tr no 10 vs jap or china while they are brits or french. Expecially in team games there is not a big strategy. Just no units before 8 minutes, all boom, then the civs whit better eco win

Well why do you think the old players were better? We have h2o who is the best or one of the best old players, and we have many people that can beat him sometimes in some games. Doesn't that mean the players are good?

Becouse h20 now is not on his top as he was in 2008. On this years there was a lot of players near his skills. There are so many big pro that ppl don't know now that was amazing. Nobody know Ruthless, _daut, namless and others. Before there was more players, more competiction and was more hard to play and rank up. If you see the final in the wcg of 2007, you will se NP lost vs a guy. That guy was amazing too like others. Sad to say maybe, but the only players that impressed me ( and not so much) was nagayumi. Samwise who here is looked as god was nobady in the active meta. He went famouse when he won vs a decayed flooky. Whit that i'm not saying sam is noob or what. Great player. But if tjhere was a lot of players better then him, try to immage the level

[lordraphael]

Show hidden quotes

yea rush is dead on tad because the players are better and rushing is mostly bad

there isn't the right way. In some MU u have to rush, other pressing other ff. The rush is dead becouse players skills now are low compared to years ago.

ofc its completely mu dependent, but in like 75%+ of MUs rushing doesnt work, and its not because players skills are low, its because they're higher lol. Especially on most EP maps where you can have 3 hunts in your base rushing can't really work because defenders advantage is too big. Especially in the past year or two people have started defending with vils which you I don't remember seeing before.

I mean the skills of players now are low if comparated to the past years. Before there was great pro. Well as i've said in more the one threads. Eso maps have killed rush whit their op res in base. Anyway rush is a big concept. Rush all in ofc will not works, expecially 1-1. But rush as i mean (costant pressing, broking eco,push) work a lot. 1-1 when u go for semi 5 huss and raid, this is a rush, not all in, but rush as costant pressing. Rush all in as never work on levels capt +++. Rush fast, pressing work and is the better way in a lot of mu. Now i see ppl play tr no 10 vs jap or china while they are brits or french. Expecially in team games there is not a big strategy. Just no units before 8 minutes, all boom, then the civs whit better eco win

Well why do you think the old players were better? We have h2o who is the best or one of the best old players, and we have many people that can beat him sometimes in some games. Doesn't that mean the players are good?

Becouse h20 now is not on his top as he was in 2008. On this years there was a lot of players near his skills. There are so many big pro that ppl don't know now that was amazing. Nobody know Ruthless, _daut, namless and others. Before there was more players, more competiction and was more hard to play and rank up. If you see the final in the wcg of 2007, you will se NP lost vs a guy. That guy was amazing too like others. Sad to say maybe, but the only players that impressed me ( and not so much) was nagayumi. Samwise who here is looked as god was nobady in the active meta. He went famouse when he won vs a decayed flooky. Whit that i'm not saying sam is noob or what. Great player. But if tjhere was a lot of players better then him, try to immage the level

Sam would have been a top player in WCG times aswell he just wasnt at his peak level back then,which can have various factors (age, dedication etc ). I do agree that old pros are probably better than new pros. Except for H2o none of the top players today would have been at the very top back then. At least thats what im assuming. In terms of PR players like, irish, mitoe, umeu, myself etc would probably be around pr 40-42 if you assume that the very top players reached 45 back then +++. But thats purely theorizing we will never know how the old pros would perform if they started playing again and vice versa. Whats certain is that the average skill level definitely declined simply because player base shrinked.

[momuuu]

That doesnt mean people are relatively worse now. In terms of mechanics yes, but in terms of meta we're probably much further than the rest.

However, often people are born into a meta. Nowadays many people would be caught off guard by china colonial play, something that was more common back in the earlier days of TAD for example. I feel like I can kinda claim this as Ive played the game for quite long at a decent level. But then again so have most pros nowadays so it's not as much of a point when it comes to the top players.

[lordraphael]

That doesnt mean people are relatively worse now. In terms of mechanics yes, but in terms of meta we're probably much further than the rest.

However, often people are born into a meta. Nowadays many people would be caught off guard by china colonial play, something that was more common back in the earlier days of TAD for example. I feel like I can kinda claim this as Ive played the game for quite long at a decent level. But then again so have most pros nowadays so it's not as much of a point when it comes to the top players.

well ye if suddenly all old pros would return and play in this tournament and the tourney would be sc2 like ( finished in 2.5 days ) the good players now would most certainly prevail. But meta isnt skill. It would be shocking if the meta of 200 8 would still be dominant in 2016. So saying that people arent worse because the meta and builds have become more polished doesnt make much sense. Once a build has been developed and improved every1 can learn it. How does this make players today better in terms of skill. Its not a skill to have a disposal of good builds if none of those builds were developed by yourself.

[momuuu]

That doesnt mean people are relatively worse now. In terms of mechanics yes, but in terms of meta we're probably much further than the rest.

However, often people are born into a meta. Nowadays many people would be caught off guard by china colonial play, something that was more common back in the earlier days of TAD for example. I feel like I can kinda claim this as Ive played the game for quite long at a decent level. But then again so have most pros nowadays so it's not as much of a point when it comes to the top players.

well ye if suddenly all old pros would return and play in this tournament and the tourney would be sc2 like ( finished in 2.5 days ) the good players now would most certainly prevail. But meta isnt skill. It would be shocking if the meta of 200 8 would still be dominant in 2016. So saying that people arent worse because the meta and builds have become more polished doesnt make much sense. Once a build has been developed and improved every1 can learn it. How does this make players today better in terms of skill. Its not a skill to have a disposal of good builds if none of those builds were developed by yourself.

But the level of play overal is better, that was kinda my point. As in, the builds are more developed and often simply superior, and the current knowledge the community as a whole has is much better. If you want to compare old vs new as how we are playing right now, then Id say players from now timetravelling back into time to the old eras would do much better if they could hide their strats.

[lordraphael]

That doesnt mean people are relatively worse now. In terms of mechanics yes, but in terms of meta we're probably much further than the rest.

However, often people are born into a meta. Nowadays many people would be caught off guard by china colonial play, something that was more common back in the earlier days of TAD for example. I feel like I can kinda claim this as Ive played the game for quite long at a decent level. But then again so have most pros nowadays so it's not as much of a point when it comes to the top players.

well ye if suddenly all old pros would return and play in this tournament and the tourney would be sc2 like ( finished in 2.5 days ) the good players now would most certainly prevail. But meta isnt skill. It would be shocking if the meta of 200 8 would still be dominant in 2016. So saying that people arent worse because the meta and builds have become more polished doesnt make much sense. Once a build has been developed and improved every1 can learn it. How does this make players today better in terms of skill. Its not a skill to have a disposal of good builds if none of those builds were developed by yourself.

But the level of play overal is better, that was kinda my point. As in, the builds are more developed and often simply superior, and the current knowledge the community as a whole has is much better. If you want to compare old vs new as how we are playing right now, then Id say players from now timetravelling back into time to the old eras would do much better if they could hide their strats.

ye but using superior strats isnt skill its knowledge. Also Im not doubting that old players would lose to new players if they had no time to learn the new meta. What im saying is that if both types had the same conditions the older players would most likely turn out to be more skilled.

[r4go]

@lordraphael

notification

i'm totally agree whit you. The big difference i've noticed between old and new meta Is the talent of players. Old pro was pure talent. In the same condiction they Will owns for sure. Also there are a lot of example of same old pro that went back and >>>> all. I don't mind only grunt. But for make an example. Marra, the best italian player whit Francio. When he want back in 2009-10 he owned a lot of top players. He did a lot of obs. Braidon owned hard Sam ( there Is a YouTube video) when braidon wasn't so Active, he was decaying. New meta now is just well know by low rank. Twitch and YouTube did a lot. But when i listen build are better i'm not so agree. Now the meta Is more slow, so build are slow and eco boom. We don't know a lot of civs on their 100%. And i Can speak about team too. I see a lot of top players whit their build. In an Active age this build make a gg in 6 minutes. I give you an example. I saw One of the last Tit games, 2-2 brits mirror. How they played it Is a suicide in the old metà. This metà Is slow and booming. Old meta was more fast, costante pressure, more similar to SC2. My personal.opinion. Age get Is top in 2007.

[Hazza54321]

The boom meta is mostly due to ep maps

[Jaeger]

@lordraphael

notification

i'm totally agree whit you. The big difference i've noticed between old and new meta Is the talent of players. Old pro was pure talent. In the same condiction they Will owns for sure. Also there are a lot of example of same old pro that went back and >>>> all. I don't mind only grunt. But for make an example. Marra, the best italian player whit Francio. When he want back in 2009-10 he owned a lot of top players. He did a lot of obs. Braidon owned hard Sam ( there Is a YouTube video) when braidon wasn't so Active, he was decaying. New meta now is just well know by low rank. Twitch and YouTube did a lot. But when i listen build are better i'm not so agree. Now the meta Is more slow, so build are slow and eco boom. We don't know a lot of civs on their 100%. And i Can speak about team too. I see a lot of top players whit their build. In an Active age this build make a gg in 6 minutes. I give you an example. I saw One of the last Tit games, 2-2 brits mirror. How they played it Is a suicide in the old metà. This metà Is slow and booming. Old meta was more fast, costante pressure, more similar to SC2. My personal.opinion. Age get Is top in 2007.

The current meta is such that you play as greedy as possible witouth losing. So ofc if there is a rush at 6 minutes they will adapt, but when the dust settles the defending team who started a little more eco should theoretically be ahead. I think many mid ranked players play the meta witouth knowing how to adapt, so they would lose vs a rushing mid rank team from the past. But i think top player team should win

[r4go]

@ovi12

notification

my love, about team players of now i'm pretty sure they Will not able to face old team pro. Are you playing age dude?? I didn't see you anymore :( playing on another acc??

[Jaeger]

@ovi12

notification

my love, about team players of now i'm pretty sure they Will not able to face old team pro. Are you playing age dude?? I didn't see you anymore :( playing on another acc??

Sorry my honey I miss you but I have no time to play so much anymore

[r4go]

@ovi12

notification

my love, about team players of now i'm pretty sure they Will not able to face old team pro. Are you playing age dude?? I didn't see you anymore :( playing on another acc??

Sorry my honey I miss you but I have no time to play so much anymore

I understand u my honey love. I hope i wil see you as soon as possible <3