Russia v China

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United States of America Papist
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Russia v China

Post by Papist »

So I have been maining Russia, and oddly this is one of the weirdest and most difficult MUs for me at the moment.

When he goes for an FF, I absolutely demolish him, but when he goes for colonial play, I always seem to lose. Chu ko nu just seem better than strelets, and my Cossacks can't do anything with a big blob of pikes standing in the back. So what should I do?
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India gh0st
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Re: Russia v China

Post by gh0st »

...and i thought it was the other way around, damn :biggrin:
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Re: Russia v China

Post by tedere12 »

I need to see that to believe it... Anyway china has some notorious age 2 shipments that can break fb's in team, might work in x1 if you are unprepared I guess. Please tell me how the chinese player get even close to the number of your strelets
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Re: Russia v China

Post by forgrin »

I could see this... China almost certainly has the power to break Russia's FB unless Russia goes like 5-4-13 or something super all in as well, which basically no Russia player would do nowadays. Once the fb is broken China ages for free and wins. other than 5 coss China's military shipments are probably better.
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Re: Russia v China

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Probably you lose to China's unit shipments if you overcommit, but Russia's late colo should be much better than china's simply because steppe riders suck.
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Re: Russia v China

Post by zoom »

Strelets destroy CKN unless your opponent has perfect micro without being snared. Just Strelet all-in until your inevitable loss.
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Re: Russia v China

Post by britishmusketeer »

china age 2 is super scoutable since they chop lots of wood in trans. If they are playing age 2, you no-longer need to all in under their tc. Just go for a timing.
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Re: Russia v China

Post by momuuu »

Oh, also just micro and macro
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Re: Russia v China

Post by Papist »

I will make sure to rec my next Russia v. China game so you see what I'm talking about, but I will do my best to explain. By the time I have my 5 cossacks and 10 musk/20 strelets out, China has 2-3 batches of Old Han, as well as the 8 ckn and 7 steppe rider shipments. Strelets are good and all, but they are significantly outgunned (not to mention outranged) by 14-17 ckn. This means I am forced to either throw away my fb, or commit and lose my cav (at which point he throws in his steppe riders and finishes it, bad as they may be).

I guess my issue is that I don't know how to respond to this early aggression. China has this window in early colonial where their army is just flat-out better, and I don't know how to respond. If I play aggressively, I lose to a rush and if I play defensively I lose to an FF. So what's the answer?
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Re: Russia v China

Post by Gendarme »

5 cossack > 700w is probably the way to go whether china goes colonial or not. Steppe riders are pretty weak against anything other than RI, so your cossacks are probably enough pseudo-anticav and you don't really need musketeers. When the 700w arrives, you probably will get second blockhouse and stable, and market upgrades if you haven't already - and the massing starts. I don't see how China would beat a cossack/strelet army in colonial age.
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Re: Russia v China

Post by yemshi »

Check his deck. Does he have rattan shields? Then you just have to hold his 7 steppe which you could hold with double BH and your 9 cossacks = make pur strelets, 2 steppes every now then won't make a difference. Also you age faster. Does he chop wood? Then try to make little walls in your fb, you could even wall your units in of you want to spend 50w.Don't push.
Does he send shipments to hold and ages behind this? Scout with your Hero or even a low HP strelet.
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Re: Russia v China

Post by Hazza54321 »

Seriously dont even bother making musks in this MU
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Re: Russia v China

Post by fei123456 »

if he decide to play age 2, send 5 cossacks first, and train MUSKs. use your cossack to raid, but don't over commit with your infantry.
then 700w. build stable, tp, and 2ND BLOCKHOUSE. also train a batch of strelet.
china won't push you until his 2nd shipment arrives. send 4 cossack, and defend with 2 bhs and cossack musk strelet etc.
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Re: Russia v China

Post by Hazza54321 »

Couprider wrote:if he decide to play age 2, send 5 cossacks first, and train MUSKs. use your cossack to raid, but don't over commit with your infantry.
then 700w. build stable, tp, and 2ND BLOCKHOUSE. also train a batch of strelet.
china won't push you until his 2nd shipment arrives. send 4 cossack, and defend with 2 bhs and cossack musk strelet etc.

why musks
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Re: Russia v China

Post by WickedCossack »

Just saying church wagon as china crushes this MU.

You will thank me in .... 2019 I guess?
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Re: Russia v China

Post by fei123456 »

Hazza54321 wrote:
Couprider wrote:if he decide to play age 2, send 5 cossacks first, and train MUSKs. use your cossack to raid, but don't over commit with your infantry.
then 700w. build stable, tp, and 2ND BLOCKHOUSE. also train a batch of strelet.
china won't push you until his 2nd shipment arrives. send 4 cossack, and defend with 2 bhs and cossack musk strelet etc.

why musks

if china decides to push the blockhouse he usually send 9 pike 7 cav. and he has a few chukonu and disciples. cossack+strelet may lose to this combo.
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Re: Russia v China

Post by Hazza54321 »

Couprider wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:
Couprider wrote:if he decide to play age 2, send 5 cossacks first, and train MUSKs. use your cossack to raid, but don't over commit with your infantry.
then 700w. build stable, tp, and 2ND BLOCKHOUSE. also train a batch of strelet.
china won't push you until his 2nd shipment arrives. send 4 cossack, and defend with 2 bhs and cossack musk strelet etc.

why musks

if china decides to push the blockhouse he usually send 9 pike 7 cav. and he has a few chukonu and disciples. cossack+strelet may lose to this combo.

doubt it
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Re: Russia v China

Post by Kaiserklein »

I think russia shits on china
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Re: Russia v China

Post by CurassierAndCurassier »

No one seems to use them, but I don't think its a bad idea to mix in some halberds, especially in this situation. Have them body block for your Cossacks so you can get the cavalry to the chu ko nus.
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Re: Russia v China

Post by Papist »

CurassierAndCurassier wrote:No one seems to use them, but I don't think its a bad idea to mix in some halberds, especially in this situation. Have them body block for your Cossacks so you can get the cavalry to the chu ko nus.


Halbs are an age 3 unit, and Russia typically stays age 2 in this matchup (as well as most others). Also, as a rule, it is best to avoid making melee infantry in age 3 because this is when most civs get access to skirmishers, which can kite units like halbs easily.
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Re: Russia v China

Post by Kaiserklein »

I think russia should age up vs china, otherwise china cav gonna shit on everything russia gets
Anyway halbs are useless, if you want a unit to do this job just take musks and put them in melee mode, they do more or less everything better. And they can also shoot. Cav archers are better either way
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Re: Russia v China

Post by Jaeger »

Kaiserklein wrote:I think russia should age up vs china, otherwise china cav gonna shit on everything russia gets
Anyway halbs are useless, if you want a unit to do this job just take musks and put them in melee mode, they do more or less everything better. And they can also shoot. Cav archers are better either way

Wait what? You think russia ff>china ff?
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Re: Russia v China

Post by Kaiserklein »

Rather russia slow semi ff > china ff imo. I don't really see russia winning in age 2 anyway. Meh or maybe with cossacks mass it would be able to win colo too idk.
Say russia grabs some stagecoach TPs while pressuring with musks (probs make like 30 or so before aging up around 9-10 min or whatever) and then I guess you can ship falcs first if you have a lot of musks left, which should be enough to hold china's push for a while imo. And then when he comes back later you'll have to hold with CA strel but I think it's not much of a problem
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Re: Russia v China

Post by fei123456 »

Kaiserklein wrote:Rather russia slow semi ff > china ff imo. I don't really see russia winning in age 2 anyway. Meh or maybe with cossacks mass it would be able to win colo too idk.
Say russia grabs some stagecoach TPs while pressuring with musks (probs make like 30 or so before aging up around 9-10 min or whatever) and then I guess you can ship falcs first if you have a lot of musks left, which should be enough to hold china's push for a while imo. And then when he comes back later you'll have to hold with CA strel but I think it's not much of a problem

if russia can do some age 2 boom (atp stagecoach for example), a semiff into cossack cav archer strelet cannon is good. the bo is like atp-700w-(5coss)-700g-fast age up.
but at around 9-10 min if you can't beat china, china will kill you instead, and i don't think you have a chance to age up then.
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Re: Russia v China

Post by Kaiserklein »

I'd rather do 5 coss/700w/700g (/600g if you want more musks).
You're not going to kill china early fortress lol. You're the one defending, trying to keep the map, not pushing in, since you age later and china's timing is stronger in early fortress. Russia really shines in mid-late game anyway, not early on.
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