H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by deleted_user0 »

_H2O wrote:I guess I don't care about sepoy with ottomans. That's not how it works.

Anyway. I had never considered doing sepoy here because I don't find them to be hard to deal with in fortress. Howdah however with the ranged poke and the healing and the way they force china to make their weak banner army really make the strat.


ye in your strat vs china, howdah is the best option, but this is mainly because china doesnt have dragoons. Try this strat vs a civ that can get alot of goons or ruyter out, and it doesnt work as well. Sure the howdah have more range, but cuz theyre so slow they cant outrun the goons and they will just get killed. I've tried howdah urumi strats vs ports, and you do well for a while but then you just can't keep up. And urumi just get kited vs pure goon anyway.

I do wonder how this strat would work vs spain tho. Though i guess spain ff would hit too fast, and atp semi might have too much mass, but it could work maybe.
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by Goodspeed »

umeu wrote:
Jerom wrote:I dont actually think sepoy would be better with mams and falcs tbh. Jans are pretty great for their tankiness, it helps out with the fast timings that otto hits.


im quite sure they would be actually. because in that combo, jans are there for 2 reasons. 1) protect the cannons from anti cav, which sepoy would be better at because higher attack vs cav (and just higher attack in general). 2) deal damage vs everything the mams can snare while they tank damage, again, something the sepoy would be better at because they have higher damage.

In the jan abus combo, i'd agree, jans would props be more useful.
Jans are significantly worse anti-cav than sepoys though. Turns out the best way to beat jan abus is to make a lot of cav so they are forced to make jans when they would rather be making abus. I feel like that wouldn't work against sepoy because your cav die too quickly. Also it would be a better kiting composition due to sepoys higher ranged damage.
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by _H2O »

I can't relate to this post in real game experience I guess.
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by drsingh »

First I would like to say I really enjoyed that match(howdah vs china). Never expected to see howdah in competitive 1v1. :). I guess India can really do specific builds to win in specific maps and matchups.

Lets see what anti cav options India has- howdah(great against some civ on boomy maps), zamburak(not good enough in age 3 without 2 age 2 upgrade cards), sepoy(arguably one of the best musketeer unit in game). I think it's easy to decide for India here that most of the ff matchups will be better with sepoy.

India can't be like other civ playing skirm goon in ff..
Because -
Gurkha have lesser range than skirm in fortress iirc
Zamb are worse than dragoons if caught by hussar in mele. They won't protect gurkha as good as sepoy can.

While zamburak is best for India in colonial play. Sepoy is only option for India in any ff or semi (just like japan ashi). Dragoon counter zamb while sepoy counter dragoons imo.

India can't play the range game. But it doesn't need to. The special power of taj mahal is very under rated. They can let your mele units and short range units get close and fight. Combined with Tov the first big fight can be easily managed. And once India survives that it will scale better than most other semi ff civ and win.

There are auto upgrade units available to India - tigers, urumi and gardeners. They should be incorporated in the build. Switching to british after getting 8 gardner at least(5+3). All are mele so need TM.

India benefits more than any civ from shipments imo. And going fortress should include atleast 2 tp. Sepoy in transition to age 3 are better able to contest tp than zamb. The 3rd match against kaiser french which diarouga lost - his only tp got taken down. His 2 seige elephant arrived late.

2 disadvantages of gurkha sepoy build - vulnerable to cannon and immobile force. First taken care of by seige elephant shipment. Second one means u need to be aggressive. Again seige ele and gurkha are better protected from hand cav by sepoy body blocking.

A question to the experts. what if build (for countering semi ff civ)-
5 Tiger FF (3-5 TP map only)
1st card - explorer combat + tiger card (*) instead of 1st trickle (split up and get more treasures if possible)
1st wonder TM.(slow age)
1 tp and market in transition. Getting only food upgrades. All to food except few on wood for vill prod.
2nd + 3rd card - 2nd trickle + 600G (order subjective to game)
Scout to confirm enemy stable start.
Using TM power + 5 tiger + 1 explorer + sentry to defend against 5 huss or 7 uhlan etc.
After 1 -1:15 min in age two start Tov with 1-2 vill (or more, subjective)
Change everyone to wood. Get barracks consulate(get 4 vill) 2nd tp. Build and Send 1 batch of sepoy to raid enemy tp.
4th card - 600wood (above + market upgrades)
5th, 6th, 7th- intervention(*), 1000 gold, seige ele,
Then 1000 w / british east India company/ sepoy / gurkha/ zamburak/ urumi
Change to brit consulate after intervention and one batch of gardener. Use Tov 800 wood to get 2nd barracks and vet gurkha sepoy upgrade.
First fight you should have 7 hand cav + 5 (or 10) tiger + 2 seige ele + gurkha sepoy (from 1000 gold)+ 2 powers TM Tov + 2 card upgraded explorers(even if small upgrade)
After that push into enemy base. Send 9 zamb to defend against raids. Or get 2nd TC + {vill or stable or stage coach} with 1000 wood.
(*)Variations -
1) 7 urumi instead of intervention. So first attack will have them instead of 7 huss+ 10% brit consulate hp. Better if enemy has musk instead of goons.
2) skip explorer tiger card in age 1. Do Faster age 2 and send 5 sepoy instead. More aggressive, faster but less eco and risky. Useful against ff civ. Send sepoy to raid their tp.

I have not played against good players and I don't know timings. But still all suggestions and criticism are welcome.

Edit2 - updated the build.
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by deleted_user0 »

Thanks for the effort on the long post.

You are right that in a pitched fight, sepoy do better vs goons than zambs. But zambs are the only normal unit faster than goons, so they can help catch raids better.

That brings me to my next point, unupgraded veteran zambs are still a great unit, not OP as with the cards, but still very good. And they are easy to mass. If you can keep them alive, you dont really need more zambs than you would need goons. You'd easily need 25 goons, but you'd never really need 50 zambs, 30-40 is almost always enough. That just shows how good they are.

Ghurka have 1 less range than normal skirs, its true, but they are better in every other way, they have more hp with the brit consulate and more attack as well. So india can definitely win the ranged game once they have enough ghurka. The 1 range deficit is really insignificant.

You only get 4 gardeners from the otto consulate if you send intervention. And ideally you want to be on brit consulate by the time you are fighting. In some cases the 4 hussar + 3 hussars can be good, but usually in age3 you dont need those hussars.

You are correct about the vulnerabilities of the ghurka sepoy build, and ghurka zamb or ghurka howdah has these problems alot less. The later compositions are more mobile (ghurka howdah only a little more tbh, howdah are really slow XD) and dont rely only on the siege elephant for anti artillery.

The tigers are bad, specially those you can make after sending a card. The ones you can make after getting the tech in the monastry are better, but still its not worth it. You should never make those units in a normal game imo. So I dont think the bo you described is good.
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by Diarouga »

@_H2O The jan rush is harder to hold than a sepoy rush, but that's because otto is just faster than india in general, and we're in a specific situation where you want to rush and as a result have many HP but a huge attack isn't needed.
I was actually talking about a semi ff war, and here, sepoys are just better.
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by drsingh »

Thx for the prompt reply. Your insight is very valuable for me.

Ok.. 4 is too less. I guess intervention can't be used. Did this get nerfed in some patch in past?

I know tigers are bad stat wise. But since they cost only food and no pop, I thought they would be cost effective if used with TM power. Also dragoons dont have a multiplier against them in ep?
Are 5 tiger along with upgraded explorer and sentries able to defend against 5 french huss in age 2?

Also what do you think about TM age up and special power??
A while back ppl were saying only fast agra or slow agra viable for India in 1v1. But now karni is being explored. In that boneng FI urumi match TM power used at the right time made urumi so much more effective.
Also getting to fortress slower with better eco karni < faster age up with TM to get gurkha sepoy upgrade faster and 4th /5th shipment in fortress rather than colonial (imo)

If vet zambs are good then there is no issue. I got a feeling from the forums that ppl don't like them in age 3.
But still british east India company card is better for gurkha sepoy build. And I don't see why mobility of enemy dragoons is an issue. You don't have any cav or artillery they can kill. (skirm>seige ele) they need to be in great numbers to be able to raid villagers. And can't seige tp. You can easily ignore dragoons and push enemy base with gurkha sepoy seige ele after taking trade route. If enemy uses resources on dragoons and send them after your villagers it works in your favour since his smaller skirm mass can't counter gurkha sepoy. I could be totally wrong here though.

Edit- I'm no longer a Crossbow. :p took so long.
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by deleted_user0 »

problem with the tigers is that you require a card at a time you cant afford it. Either you will have to skip your first discovery shipment for it, or you have to skip your first colonial shipment for it. And that's on top of the units you get for the card being crappy.

its not just mobility of enemy dragoons, just zambs are better vs raids in general, while the sepoy ghurka build is kinda defenseless vs raids
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

  • Quote

Post by drsingh »

@_H2O
If you can manage the time then please write this build with variations and guidelines on when to use..
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by zoom »

umeu wrote:oh yes, their fortress is still fine, thats not the point. Its just that they were allready a very flat civ, and esoc just made them 1 dimensional. Which is not something we want to do, seeing as we are trying to make other 1 dimensional civs less so.

and besides tibet, i dont think china was op ye, strong but not op. and even on tibet they could be beat, as some civs just hardcounter them easily.
What civilization did EP make one-dimensional, and how?
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by lordraphael »

zoom wrote:
umeu wrote:oh yes, their fortress is still fine, thats not the point. Its just that they were allready a very flat civ, and esoc just made them 1 dimensional. Which is not something we want to do, seeing as we are trying to make other 1 dimensional civs less so.

and besides tibet, i dont think china was op ye, strong but not op. and even on tibet they could be beat, as some civs just hardcounter them easily.
What civilization did EP make one-dimensional, and how?

By nerfing old han they removed that choice for china therefore making them more 1 dimensional than before. Btw i dont think anyone has even tried to FI witch china since the old han nerf. I think claims that old han is to weak now is purely based on theory crafting.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by deleted_user0 »

china, by eliminating their FI potential, which is now pretty pointless since old-han is worse than regular units which you can make in fortress as well. And, because the livestock was something which could often trigger or smoothen a FI build, but with the nerf, this wont happen as much anymore, even if there was a reason to FI.

So, now china is only viable in age3. Age2 was never viable, and age4 was sometimes viable, but is now no longer viable.
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by Diarouga »

Old han is trash now.
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Diarouga wrote:Old han is trash now.

and rightfully so, fucking broken units
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by momuuu »

lordraphael wrote:
zoom wrote:
umeu wrote:oh yes, their fortress is still fine, thats not the point. Its just that they were allready a very flat civ, and esoc just made them 1 dimensional. Which is not something we want to do, seeing as we are trying to make other 1 dimensional civs less so.

and besides tibet, i dont think china was op ye, strong but not op. and even on tibet they could be beat, as some civs just hardcounter them easily.
What civilization did EP make one-dimensional, and how?

By nerfing old han they removed that choice for china therefore making them more 1 dimensional than before. Btw i dont think anyone has even tried to FI witch china since the old han nerf. I think claims that old han is to weak now is purely based on theory crafting.

Its not really like china FI was OP really. That change was kinda made in an attempt to please team players I think.
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by deleted_user0 »

it was actually quite op, depending on the mu and map. So 100% was probably too overpowered, those old han bows beat their counter without much problem. but 50% is too shit, so it seems 75% is a nice way to go from here, perhaps tweak it to 70 or 80 if it turns out that they need too many or too few hits to kill.
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by zoom »

drsingh wrote:@_H2O
If you can manage the time then please write this build with variations and guidelines on when to use..
When your opponent is doing a passive, unviable strategy.

/thread
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Re: H2O's Eco Indian Elephants

Post by forgrin »

drsingh wrote:Thx for the prompt reply. Your insight is very valuable for me.

Ok.. 4 is too less. I guess intervention can't be used. Did this get nerfed in some patch in past?

I know tigers are bad stat wise. But since they cost only food and no pop, I thought they would be cost effective if used with TM power. Also dragoons dont have a multiplier against them in ep?
Are 5 tiger along with upgraded explorer and sentries able to defend against 5 french huss in age 2?

Also what do you think about TM age up and special power??
A while back ppl were saying only fast agra or slow agra viable for India in 1v1. But now karni is being explored. In that boneng FI urumi match TM power used at the right time made urumi so much more effective.
Also getting to fortress slower with better eco karni < faster age up with TM to get gurkha sepoy upgrade faster and 4th /5th shipment in fortress rather than colonial (imo)

If vet zambs are good then there is no issue. I got a feeling from the forums that ppl don't like them in age 3.
But still british east India company card is better for gurkha sepoy build. And I don't see why mobility of enemy dragoons is an issue. You don't have any cav or artillery they can kill. (skirm>seige ele) they need to be in great numbers to be able to raid villagers. And can't seige tp. You can easily ignore dragoons and push enemy base with gurkha sepoy seige ele after taking trade route. If enemy uses resources on dragoons and send them after your villagers it works in your favour since his smaller skirm mass can't counter gurkha sepoy. I could be totally wrong here though.

Edit- I'm no longer a Crossbow. :p took so long.


I actually quite like Agra 7-sepoy semi to fast ageup with Taj, it allows you to age up more safely vs civs with faster semis. Karni just seems too passive and is too easily scouted in many MUs.

I have intervention in my India fortress deck. When used for redcoats it's a pretty decent card in certain MUs, like vs Germany or China.

Vet zambs are good, they're just worse than goons in early fortress because you really need 2 stables to pump out enough of them, especially considering you need to research vet tech too.

I don't really think pure inf is good, even if it's OP gurk+sepoy. It just loses to brain-dead double skirm or skirm cav. Better to just have a 3-4 unit comp.
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