_H2O wrote:This thread isn't about diarougas build to possibly beat France on EP though. It's about the build mitoe and I worked out that involves a cool unit comp that worked well enough to win a semifinal game.
I am not too concerned about the sepoy gurka build right now. I don't even know if it's good. I don't think my opponents play India so it's not too important for me to figure it out either.
All I am saying is that my build honestly drew zero inspiration from the 5 minutes I spent watching you duel Kaiser and prince on Hudson.
You probably didn't take inspiration on what I did but it's still weird to claim that it is bad while your is really good
Yeah sepoy are pretty good I'll take any excuse (opponent making cav) to make them. Full inf with mainly sepoy + urumi probably would do pretty well against China too
Jans and sepoy are about equally cost effective looking at just ranged dmg and HP with jans having 25% more HP, sepoy having 25% more attack and sepoy being slightly cheaper. Sepoy however do 50% more melee damage against cavalry. I'd rather have sepoy in almost every situation. If anti-cav isn't what I need then I wouldn't be making musks anyway.
_H2O wrote:Only musket unit I would make in fort is the jan. Jan's are broken though so that's okay
Aren't sepoys even better than jans?
ye sepoys are def better than jans. Infact jans feel rather underwhelming.
breeze wrote:
they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
All the math guys and top players say Jans feel underwhelming. You try playing against a double rax Jan rush and tell me that unit is fair.
It might be beatable but the stat distribution and synergy combined with their easy play style makes it even more mindless. Also when you play Otto you make mostly Jan's. I hear often in the same breath "abus are amazing though". Well then why am I most scared of pure Jan ffs with shipments of hand cav behind them.
I guess the complete picture I would rather play vs an India player making sepoy.
When a 12 sepoy rush comes into my base on RE from a major I can just call minutes, snare him, and clean it up.
The same guy comes in at the same time with 20 jans I call minutes and he literally could care less. Oh and btw if I can't unbell I literally never can again because he has the gas to get another 10 after that and they don't die to tc fire.
_H2O wrote:All the math guys and top players say Jans feel underwhelming. You try playing against a double rax Jan rush and tell me that unit is fair.
It might be beatable but the stat distribution and synergy combined with their easy play style makes it even more mindless. Also when you play Otto you make mostly Jan's. I hear often in the same breath "abus are amazing though". Well then why am I most scared of pure Jan ffs with shipments of hand cav behind them.
I guess the complete picture I would rather play vs an India player making sepoy.
When a 12 sepoy rush comes into my base on RE from a major I can just call minutes, snare him, and clean it up.
The same guy comes in at the same time with 20 jans I call minutes and he literally could care less. Oh and btw if I can't unbell I literally never can again because he has the gas to get another 10 after that and they don't die to tc fire.
Nothing you've mentioned has anything to do with the unit itself and everything to do with the fact that it's the main unit of the main strat of an OP civ that a pr 25 can play as well as a pr 35 cause it takes 0 skill. Ofc you're gonna be more worried about 25 jans in your base at 6 minutes vs 12 Sepoy, but that has almost nothing to do with the unit itself but with the overall strength of the civ. You'd be just as scared of any other unit whens theres 25 of them in your base and they take 3 tc shots to kill.
I personally am not afraid of Sepoy either, but Jans are pretty dumb. There is actually a big difference between a Sepoy rush and a Jan rush: Sepoy will die to the explorer (or tower/warhut, depending on civ) after 2 TC shots, but Jans will not. That unit just does not die, don't try to say that a 35hp difference (Sep: 190 vs Jan: 225) is negligible.
IMO Sepoy are a very well rounded unit, but they do fall off the longer the game goes because Zambs just kill cav much more easily after 1 upgrade, and Skirms will just destroy Sepoy en masse or with CIR. For that reason alone I personally would not make many in Fortress, because I feel like against any very skilled player they will not be as useful as another unit. Sure when your opponent doesn't know how to kite they can be pretty good.
Ofc the major difference between the usefulness of Sepoy and Jans isn't that one unit is better than the other, but that Otto is simply much faster than India so their opponent doesn't really have any opportunity to mass any respectable counter unit in early Colonial or early Fortress. If India were as fast as Otto Sepoy would probably feel just as dumb, but I doubt they would be quite so bad simply because you can actually micro them down with TC fire and 1 other source of damage, whereas with Jans you can't really.
As for Ashi, the only reason Japan makes Ashi really is because they don't have a reasonable goon unit. Sure the unit isn't bad, but they're really not much better than other musketeer units in fortress either.
_H2O wrote:All the math guys and top players say Jans feel underwhelming. You try playing against a double rax Jan rush and tell me that unit is fair.
It might be beatable but the stat distribution and synergy combined with their easy play style makes it even more mindless. Also when you play Otto you make mostly Jan's. I hear often in the same breath "abus are amazing though". Well then why am I most scared of pure Jan ffs with shipments of hand cav behind them.
I guess the complete picture I would rather play vs an India player making sepoy.
When a 12 sepoy rush comes into my base on RE from a major I can just call minutes, snare him, and clean it up.
The same guy comes in at the same time with 20 jans I call minutes and he literally could care less. Oh and btw if I can't unbell I literally never can again because he has the gas to get another 10 after that and they don't die to tc fire.
ye in that situation jans do fine, however its not fair to make the comparison between jans and sepoy based on that. Because india works in a different way. If otto had sepoys and could do a double rax sepoy rush and trickle in 10 sepoy at a time (since they are cheaper than jans, they could do the exact same thing with sepoys), im pretty sure otto would be 10 times scarier.
- Sepoy's higher ranged dmg and much higher melee dmg against cav makes abus+sepoy a scarier composition than abus+jan. - Those same stats make sepoy stronger with falcs and with mamelukes, improving Otto's fortress timings. The only thing that would be worse is the all-in musk rush against a naked FF
Ryan I don't think anyone's arguing jans are underwhelming, it's just that sepoys are even better. Both jans and sepoys compare favourably to ashi and regular musketeers. The reason jans feel broken to you may be that musk-type units in general are much more useful to a civ like Otto.
I dont actually think sepoy would be better with mams and falcs tbh. Jans are pretty great for their tankiness, it helps out with the fast timings that otto hits.
I guess I don't care about sepoy with ottomans. That's not how it works.
Anyway. I had never considered doing sepoy here because I don't find them to be hard to deal with in fortress. Howdah however with the ranged poke and the healing and the way they force china to make their weak banner army really make the strat.
I think its pretty significant that howdahs don't need veteran upgrade too. The fact that india requires 3 vet upgrades if you ignore elephants makes their semi FF so weak. I've so far had better results replacing zambs and sowars with mahout and howdahs just to avoid the vet upgrade bs.
Jerom wrote:I dont actually think sepoy would be better with mams and falcs tbh. Jans are pretty great for their tankiness, it helps out with the fast timings that otto hits.
im quite sure they would be actually. because in that combo, jans are there for 2 reasons. 1) protect the cannons from anti cav, which sepoy would be better at because higher attack vs cav (and just higher attack in general). 2) deal damage vs everything the mams can snare while they tank damage, again, something the sepoy would be better at because they have higher damage.
In the jan abus combo, i'd agree, jans would props be more useful.
