India Karni Mata build (for EP)

[Garja]

Introduction
This build works well on EP where the meta is more boomy, rush is a bit less effective and starting resources are all safely placed around the TC.
The idea is to get a decent eco while still matching most common timings (using the generic euro civ as benchmark). Adaptations are needed to deal with problematic strats against some civs (e.g. Spain, French, etc.).
India already used to do fine vs colo civs (Brits, Jap, Aztecs, Russia) with the agra builds (rush or boomy) so this strat is not really necessary in those cases (actually can be quite bad vs Aztecs or Russia for example).

The main build order
The essential cards are the usual ones with India:
- 1st wood trickle
- 600 wood
- 300 export

2nd wood trickle is a possible variation instead of 300 export (otherwise it is a good 3rd card in colonial).

Age1
Age1 is common usual india stuff. I usually balance my macro watching the vills in queue. When I'm at about 500-600f (usually that coincides with the arrival of first card) and I have atleast 2v in queue I switch all vills to food. 3rd vill in queue is a safer approach. Probably the sweet spot is 500f 3v in queue, but I'm not sure. It comes natural with time anyway.

Dropping the wonder
Drop the karni wonder with 1 vill where it covers most of starting resources (pay attention to 2nd mine). Quickly add other 3 vills and switch food vills to wood (mind vill pathing if you can). [u]The goal is to age between 4.10 and 4.40. 4v is the standard for that. Can be 3v with very good start (dropping wonder at 2.45 or so) or even 5v with gold start and dropping the wonder at 3.20-3.30 (you will have 1 extra vill out anyway). Again these timings are based on euro civ benchmarks. If you have a read on the opponent you can add or remove vills.

Transition to colo
Keep constant vill production and drop a market (TP is another possibility but then the market has to be skipped, unless you want a super greedy build in which case you might just do the old agra build).
Research 1st food and gold up. Yes, no all-resources-up first. It's too slow and you're about to move most of your wood vills anyway.
By the time you research them both you should be in colo.
Another possibility is just to skip market and either build houses (you're going to rush hard in this case) or build a consulate (cons rush) or drop a TP (again works well with rush).

Shift-task 1 of the 4 vills building the wonder to gold (other 3 will autogather the crates, mind crate spawn if you remember).

Colonial
Here come the variations of the build:
1) drop a military building and start producing units asap
2) drop a military building and keep researching market techs
3) just research all market techs

1)
I usually do this when I plan to make something happens with units or I'm getting pressured. If you do this then move all wood vills but 6 in transition to food after first 2 market techs. TC rally point goes to gold and the 3 vills gathering crates will also go to gold.
I normally make a stable and with this macro I end up selling 100f for gold (actually first time it's not bad) so that I can complete the sowar batch. With good start you don't need to use the market. Mind making a house (you're at 19/20). 600w is used for consulate, another house or two and a rax (2x stable instead is interesting sometimes). 2nd batch of units can either be sowar, zambs or infantry from rax. Use 1 vill for consulate if you drop it before sending 300 export, otherwise w/e number of vills it takes to have it finished when 300export arrives.
Select French cons and send 500w 500g (don't forget to get 500g asap). Queue up the end of relationship together with 500g. You really don't need 4v from otto cons with this strat since they repay too slowly (and you have useless bonus compared to 5% more gathering). Also I don't want to wait for 3 huss since I prefer brit cons asap. Use 500w for 2nd rax and houses (also as buffer for vill production so that you can temporarily remove vills from wood if necessary).
Next card is 2nd wood trickle. With this you really don't need many vills on wood. Usually it is 6 for me (they substain vill production, while trickles take care of houses).
Next card for me is usually 700f. Yes I know it sounds shitty but works great together with 500g from cons. The point is if you can spam a bit more you also get exp faster for next card. 4 sowar or camel attack used to be the more standard options, and they're still viable.
At some point you want to push. I usually try to use first batches of cav (that's the whole point of dropping stable asap). Don't push too early tho. India production starts kicking in from 8 min or so with this build (kinda like Brits) and from there is steady production from 2-3 military buildings per cycle.
As you spare wood you complete the market techs (which by that point start to be worth it given the relevant vill count).

2)
Second build is same as previous one except you're more lax on unit production and squeeze market techs in between batches. Imperial burocracy can still be skipped for a while since you have 10%+5% boost from the wonder and the consulate anyway.
This option makes sense when you expect units from the opponent but you're not in any hurry to push (vs Brits for example). In this case 700f card is clearly not very good and 4v from otto cons might be a better option (since you have the market techs already). 700f still good when you're doing a 10 min timing or so with sepoy, gurka and sowar vs a semi FF civ like French that will have the 2 falcs out at that point. You really don't need camel attack yet vs that while max unit pop is the goal.

3)
Third option is good vs civs that are not going to pressure you anytime soon (e.g Dutch straight FFing or China FF). Can be turned in the 2nd option if you scout something concerning.
The idea here is to get all market ups asap (I still go for the order food, gold, food, gold, all, all) while usually FFing gathering all the 1200f 1000g resources from hunts and mines (and only adapting if necessary). Consulate still goes to French to match the timings (very tight in this case).
600w is used for cons, 2 houses, and vills (you barely need any vill on wood after imperial burocracy). 500w from French cons is used for rax+stable and a vill (again no vills on wood if everything is done correctly). 500g arrives when you're in transition already and will be used for units and vet ups.
Drop the wonder with 6 vills from gold and move a number of food vills to wood to keep vill production. Age up with tower of victory and use the 800w for another rax and unit ups.
Your eco is stellar and you have everything set up to spam skirm and camels non stop.
You should reach fortress around 8.40 while making units in transition.
Fortress cards can be anything from 8 skirms, 9 zambs, 1000w, and gurka/sepoy/sowar combat card. I don't like urumi card but it is an option.


New Karni Mata build for EP 4.0

Introduction
India received quite some relevant buffs in this patch iteration while the supposed sepoy nerf is in fact irrelevant in practical terms. Yes, -10 hp makes them die from TC in 2 shots. No, the sepoy is not weak now. It is still the best musketeer type unit when it actually matters.
30w saved per house means that all the early part of the game (read build order) is smoother. In particular the age up time to colonial is consistently faster and then trickles+600w alone take care of vill production.
Sowar cost reduction is not big deal but it adds over an already decent unit that never felt too expensive.
Those buffs combined with some previous innovative ideas lead to new better builds.
One thing that has been tested before EP 4.0 was TPing at start. It always felt arguable even with 400w. In this best case some GFA builds seemed rather strong but in fact, in actual games, GFA doesn’t really helps solving India problems and therefore increase its winning rate.
Other TP related ideas include just saving the shipment or using it for Advanced Wonder card (°o°). The latter compensates the delayed age up time caused by the TP then helps reaching age3 faster. It also makes the mid map Agra realistically unkillable without some compensation. Those things combined can be used for example for rushing into holding the agra or rushing into aging. However the price for the extra shipment is still high and despite the extra vill the compensation is dubious.
So, saving the shipments just seems the most logical idea with an early TP. Speaking of early TP, with 50w houses it is in theory viable with any crate start, even 300w ones. However you get some idle TC time. In theory that’s not a problem for India and the benefit of extra XP is huge. In practice the delayed age up time ends up being relevant in quite some cases so in the end I think that the TP is still only viable with 400w starts (unless very specific strats).

Some new ideas
To introduce the new Karni Mata build I need to first bring up some new ideas:
- early market with 100g start. Now, the first hunting upgarde for India isn’t that great. However converting that 100g crate in 100w is. Plus the 20xp (10 secs faster 1st shipment) is also useful. The market already up in transition speeds up the teching later on.
I suggest to always market with 100g starts.
- skipping 300 export. 300 export is simply too much of a long term card for the current meta. It costs a card and 200+ wood (cons building time is infinite) and at best it pays off 1000 resources in the short term (which is what really matters in the end). Considering the alternative is worth about 700 resources, it basically doesn’t give anything extra, while making the build simply more akward.
- no vills on wood. This is the final idea that leads to the actual build. India is much easier and effective to play when you can finally move off all the vills from chopping trees to pump out more units. With this new build you can have (almost) no vills on wood right from the start of colonial.

The general build concept
The main idea of the build is simply to make units and be flexible to age up if needed. Just like other civs with no fast age up option, India doesn’t mind staying in colonial for longer and either pushing or aging more around the 10 min mark rather than the usual 8 mins. Afterall age up time is just a number and India can make the same exact units in colonial. So really aging up is just a matter of:
- upgrading those units
- getting new wonder ability
- using few new special units (urumi and elephants).
Aside from that India eco and units are already very good to the point that sometimes it is just better to play colonial vs fortress.
Again, this build is not suitable against Aztecs or Russia. Vs Otto can be ok, although defensive Agra might be an easier choice. Sioux/Iro could also be a problem with 4 cav card first + more units to come. Your best bet against those 2 civs is a forward Agra, not because you can really rush them but because early colo pressure might force them in colonial where you have a chance.

The actual build

Discovery age
Go early market with 100g start. Buy wood and research the food upgrade.
Consider TP with 400w start if you think you will get something relevant from treasures, otherwise just benefit from the faster age up.
First card is the small wood trickle.
Always queue up to 14v if you didn’t chop anything extra. 15v if your start was a bit dry with no good treasures and you had to gather something extra for TP or for the hunting upgrade. Then move all vills to food. Little idle TC time doesn’t really matter. The most important thing is to have reliable age up time.
N.B. consider the free vill from the first card in the count.
Drop Karni Mata wonder with 4 vills while all others go to wood.

Transition to colonial
You can decide whether to drop a TP or not. I usually don’t build it unless very favorable starting conditions. Also herdables usually provide enough extra xp (minding them with India is crucial)
Just research the first mining upgrade and then few seconds before reaching colonial move all vills to food and gold with about 50-50 split. Mind having the next vill in queue before switching.
Use your two monks to scout the opponent. Ideally you want to know whether he’s making a military building from start or not. Possibly you want to know if it is in base or proxy.

Colonial age
Unless some specific reason (e.g destroying spain or otto forward tower) first card is always 600w.
Ideally you want to skip military buildings until 600w arrives. In this way you can use the karni wood for vills, 5% all res up and a house.
If the opponent is rushing you then need to drop a rax (or a stable) with the 200w from karni. This also means that 6 or so vills need to return to wood. Suboptimal build for you but also for your opponent.
Use 600w for two military buildings (in total) and 2 houses. Remaining wood is to queue vills.
Your two buildings can be 2 raxes, rax+stable or even 2 stables (sometimes good vs civs without musk units). Rax+stable is the most flexible opening.
Sepoy+sowar is both the less expensive and the most versatile composition since you can be aggressive with them. However if you are behind in unit production (e.g vs brits) you might want to try countering the opponent combo (e.g by going gurka-zamb). If you’re against dutch gurka+sowar is ok unless you scouted an early stable. In general gurka+sowar works great if the opponent is not challenging you with cav early on.
You should be able to get 5+5 units out easily. Even if you had to call sentries or irregulars. Don’t be afraid to trade at the market to complete the batches.
Second card is the big wood trickle. This will ensure constant vill production and housing without vills on wood. If you’re short of wood at any point (can happen because of shipments or mm taking pop space) just buy 100w at the market. Better than moving vills back and forth between resources.
Keep making units up to 20 (of any kind you need, e.g 5 sowar and 10-15 sepoy). You don’t mind making units since they are good in III too. Making units gives xp for next cards. Also you control the game with them. If the opponent is making more units you’re happy because it’s turning in a colo war. If he’s aging you’re preparing your own age up by putting the opponent on the backfoot militarily and creating a buffer in which you will catch up with age up/ unit upgrade.
Next card is 600g. It is simply the next best card. Either for making more units or aging. 300 export at this point means you need to invest 200w which you don’t have. And it will only pay off too late. In the best case it gives back 500w 500g which is questionable when the alternative saves 200w and provides 600g.
Bear in mind exports keeps growing anyway. If you need the consulate shadow buff at any point (e.g brit hp bonus) can always ally without 300export.
Only other alernatives are 5 sepoy or 4 sowar, but only if you really needs them. For example they can be good to set up a timing in colonial. In that case 600g can be saved for later either for age up or just to compensate the walking time lost when moving vills to the next mine.
Next card can either be a fortress card if you’re aging or 700f (!). Yes 700f sounds crap but it is not. In fact with India eco already being superior to most civs 700f +1vill is totally fine. 700f+1v is about the same as 600w or 600g cards with other civs. If India had a 500w+ 1v card that would be the next card. But since India doesn’t have that 700f+1v is the substitute. 600w 600g have been proven to be effective with other civs so be open minded and appreciate what’s best in practical play and not just in theory.
Basically, 700f allows for more units or just aging up smoothly (and then keeping production while aging). All other alternatives are sort of inferior:
- 300 exports still requires the consulate. I mean, by now you might want a consulate so if you’re aging and want to spend a card just send that instead. At this point you made your choice already (aging) so you can afford interrupting unit production for a while and getting 200w for a consulate. Also French consulate crates will be back to back now (600 exports in the bank), making the switch to Brit cons continuous.
Consider tho that TOV will be provide enough wood for the consulate once you reached fortress.
- 4 sowars / 5 sepoys are superior cards if needed for a timing, otherwise 700f provides more flexibility and XP from the same units being trained.
- unit upgrades, that’s too early for them to be any useful.
If you’re aging you have two options. Tower of Victory or Charminar Gate.
They both buff units in different ways but TOV provides 800w which is plenty. That should be your choice in 90% of cases. CG is only better if that mahout actually makes a difference , and/or you don’t need the wood but would rather like to take benefit of the mansbdar units.
Drop the wonder with anything from 4 to 8 vills, depending on the situation. Most of times it’s 6.

Transition to Fortress
Fix your macro. This possibly includes moving some vills back to wood for vill production/housing. Keep making units but start saving some gold for the upcoming disciplined upgrades.
This is often a delicate part of the build because your opponent has already aged up. However having showed more units than him it is unlikely that he will push with challenging stuff before he feels a bit more comfortable (e.g pushing with falcs without enough protection).

Fortress age
Use the 800w for unit upgrades, a consulate, housing, 3rd military building. Once all that stuff is done you again don’t need more than 4v on wood. If units are being traded you will probably have enough pop space to move off all vills from wood chopping.
Make w/e unit you think It’s going to be useful. Usual cards are 7 urumi, combat card (the one that buffs gurka/sepoy/sowar), occasionally 2 mahouts or even just 9 zambs/8 gurkas/6 sowars.
Try to use inspiration ability when it matters. Good example is vs falcs but even just in skirms wars where the opponent thinks he has better skirms so he keeps poking.
From there just adapt. India has better units/better eco than basically any civ. If you stabilized there are good chances you’re just going to autowin.
Be careful if the opponent sneaks a IV age up. In that case either age yourself with 1k gold or just be more aggressive while staying III and try to counter what he is inevitably going to attempt in IV (heavy cannons, revo, etc.).

Specific MUs
This strategy is super versatile but it is mostly aimed to deal with MUs that India traditionally struggles with.
Those include Germans/Dutch/French/Ports. Brits shouldn’t really be a problem but I would adopt this build anyway since it’s very practical.

Germans
Germans are the hardest civs of the bunch, I’d say. The fact that they can threaten to semi while being aggressive almost forces India to drop a military building with 200w from karni. Using just mm and elephants to defend 7 ulhans doesn’t sound feasible without significant losses.
Even though zambs counter ulhans I would still try with sepoy+sowar since going zambs early on pretty much means you’re forced on gurka zambs for the rest of the game and you will be outmassed by what actually counters skirm+goon (skirm+hand cav). Sepoy/sowar instead allows for a timing push at around 8-9 min just after Germans aged up. A straight FF might fuck your plans but it’s up to you to scout that and in case counter it by either aging or just going more rushy with early units. If you can time vs the ulhan semi you shold be fine since you will force some adaptation (e.g WW production) and then can always had gurka and use the momentum to play colo vs fortress with a complete combo and good eco.
Germans is still probably tough and might require more compromising strats (e.g. Agra semi FF for big unit shipments or some sort of Agra rush). Not that those strats work better but, again, Germans are tough and you have to make something happen.

Dutch
Dutch doesn’t sound really hard to me on EP 4.0, despite being one of the strongest civs.
5 bank naked FF allows India to do literally everything, including naked age up which is probably the easiest option provided you have complete information. Since you don’t need units vs that you can spend some wood on a TP. An alternative is to still drop 2 raxes and make 20 gurka and harass a bit. Your age up time will be almost the same and those gurkhas will be used in fortress.
5 bank huss semi is smarter since there is a good 30-40 sec gap between Dutch and India age up most of times (not with 400w tho).
Against an early stable you want early stable too. Dutch don’t have musks and don’t have that easy time going skirm+huss in fortress (they of course can but not as quickcly as Germans, Sioux or Iro). Because of that I would start stable and go zambs. Then add either another stable (same reasons) or just a rax. Unless the Dutch player is challenging you with more batches of huss you can safely go gurka+sowar and do some light pressure while aging up yourself. If he’s making more huss, obviously add more zambs. If he keeps making units you’re happy because it’s turning into a colonial game. You should be aging at about the same time and never feel being behind.
Then 2x rax carded gurka deals just fine against Dutch. Eventually add another stable, send upgrades and you will naturally outspam/outperform Dutch. Even with cannons it shouldn’t be a problem. By this point India has plenty of option to deal with cannons, including just making more zambs (disciplined upgrade gives a bonus against artillery).
5 petards from consulate is very useful in this MUs to kill 1-2 banks that you wouldn't be able to siege otherwise.
Dutch is one of those civs that can easily go IV while you’re busy setting up a fortress plan. Don’t worry tho, just keep making units in III and try to counter cannons.
Urumi rek ruyters btw.

French
French used to be quite hard for India but with the cdb nerf and India buff this MU shouldn’t be that hard now.
There are several options in this MU and it’s hard to figure out which one is better depending on the situation.
2x delayed rax generally does fine vs textbook semi into skirm goon+ falcs. You just get insane gurka+sepoy mass and can kill falcs with that + few sowars if necessary (this should happen at 9-10 mins). Another way to proceed with 2x rax is age up yourself and use disciplined sepoy/gurka+ urumi+ inspiration for the big battle. Smart players will try to mix some cuirs in, making this approach less effective.
That’s why I would just go sepoy/sowar and try a timing. That should be enough to give you a lead vs any kind of semi. Alternatively you can go sepoy/sowar age up then add gurkas andplay from there. As long as you don’t get outplayed (read raided) by the lack of goons early on you should be totally fine. Sepoy > goons when it comes to the big battle.
Another possibility is to just naked FF (if French does the same) or semi FF with the counter to what Fre is semi-FFing with. Current buffs should be barely enough to make this work with good play. You still need something against the 2 falconets and that could either be a strong shipment (7 urumi, 2 mahout, 2 howdah or 2 siege eles) or just more disciplined zambs.

Ports
Ports are very much like Dutch but with less army potential in early fortress and better scaling as the game goes on. They can also stay in colo for a while, perhaps with an atp build. Nothing of this is particularly scary tho. Just against TP strats try to ensure a TP for your own before it’s too late.
They generally don’t threaten you in early colo so you can go delayed military buildings or even no units at all and even stagecoach TPs or sea. I’d then go mostly gurka+sowar with enough zambs to be safe against cav switches. There is no reason to make zambs when the only cav shipment that Ports get is mamelukes. If you don’t see that coming then you probably just need to get better at the game.
Another way is the usual sepoy/sowar and be a bit more aggressive, then add gurka on your way to fortress and play usual fortress game. Occasionally can even just do a timing with sepoy+sowar in colonial.

[Ashvin]

nice write up
but why do you not prefer urumi?

EDIT:@Garja

notification

why you no answer me?

[Diarouga]

Good build but TP in transition is better than market, even more when you want to semi ff.

[tedere12]

finally an india guide. I cant believe it tho, diarouga approves

[rsy]

finally an india guide. I cant believe it tho, diarouga approves

Maybe they finally dropped the hatchet. I really really hope they did

[Ashvin]

finally an india guide. I cant believe it tho, diarouga approves

Maybe they finally dropped the hatchet. I really really hope they did

Nope. I don't see it happening anytime even in the farthest future

[drsingh]

Nice build.

A few questions.
Against which civs do u recommend 1st and 2nd variation.
In the 2nd one. Against french, did you mean 700f + 500g from french cons or 700f + 4 vill?
3rd variation - how about sending big trickle as 2nd card before 600w?

[Garja]

Nice build.

A few questions.
Against which civs do u recommend 1st and 2nd variation.
In the 2nd one. Against french, did you mean 700f + 500g from french cons or 700f + 4 vill?
3rd variation - how about sending big trickle as 2nd card before 600w?

I tend to use this build vs semi FF civs or Brits. Vs Russia, Aztecs and Jap I use the Agra. 1st variation is very flexible. Basically you just make units like any euro civ but still have India unique bonuses for the long run.

I meant 700f+500g. Vs French I actually used to do something different starting with sepoy, then 2nd rax and adding stable only when French are already in age3 and send 2 falcs. I don't remember exactly the BO but it was probably something skipping the consulate and 300e and sending the trickel instead. The idea is basically to do a timing just after French age with mass infantry and force the 2 cannons, then with sowar push, kill the cannons and mantain map control. Your mass and eco should be actually be better if everything is done correctly.

600w is necessary to match those timings. The big trickle might work as well but you're definitely a bit slower since you need more vills on wood early on.

[forgrin]

@Garja

notification

I tried playing out vs cpu versions 1 & 2 so far. The build is really nice! Seems to need XP tho, it went much smoother when I played on livestock maps. Got a small note on 1 & 2: If you're facing cav semi FF from france/german you can do first batch zamb and follow with sowar, and squeeze a market up during the sowar batch, at least it seems so from my test. Allows you to deflect raids better since 5 huss > 5 sowar but 5 zamb > 5 huss.

[fei123456]

if you ally with french, why don't you go GFA-300 export? you can have 500w500g500f quite fast.

[fei123456]

karni mata is actually 2 vills only (with market upgrades, but it's still not desirable). however, without the great defence of agra fort, india will become quite vulnerable to many age 2 pressures. i've seen many records that karni india lose to dutch fb rush, chinese fb rush lol.
karni mata boom build may be slightly better than agra if you're facing a non-pressure civ(china ff, dutch ff, port ff etc). however, dutch and port fully boom>>karni mata boom.

[yemshi]

Nice build
3rd variation - how about sending big trickle as 2nd card before 600w?

notification

@WickedCossack

[Garja]

 

if you ally with french, why don't you go GFA-300 export? you can have 500w500g500f quite fast.

Because it doesnt fit the build and it is a waste of a shipment just for 500f.
What I sometimes do is to rush with otto cons then send trickle and GFA to get vills (by that time you have exactly 180 export). Then I switch to French and get 500w soon after. You get OP follow up from quite heavy rush.

karni mata is actually 2 vills only (with market upgrades, but it's still not desirable). however, without the great defence of agra fort, india will become quite vulnerable to many age 2 pressures. i've seen many records that karni india lose to dutch fb rush, chinese fb rush lol.
karni mata boom build may be slightly better than agra if you're facing a non-pressure civ(china ff, dutch ff, port ff etc). however, dutch and port fully boom>>karni mata boom. 

You are not going to be in any trouble because you age at 4.30 and have stable + rax just like any civ. Also good unit cards and stuff from consulate.
There is no way you should lose to Dutch skirm pike if you play well. Same against China. You have one of the most comfortable RI+cav spam with india,  rushes only play in your hands.
As for booms your eco is stellar with market ups + 15% and all your age3 cards are superb. Of course you don't exactly out eco Ports with 80f or Dutch with 5 banks, but no civ really does at the moment.

[princeofkabul]

Why did you not mention karni 10/10 I think you have played it before..?
Anyway, solid write up.

[Garja]

nice write up
but why do you not prefer urumi?

EDIT:@Garja

notification

why you no answer me?

They cost food and requore lot of pop.
More importantly with this build you are supposed to match the army count of the opponent rather than relying on a hero unit pop out.
Basically the sooner you get a good mass of gurka the sooner you can hold some map control to place your vills behind that. And since you will soon run out of mines that's actually quite relevant.
Early on urumi get sniped off by poking skirms and so do vills if you can't shoot back with your own units.

[Garja]

Why did you not mention karni 10/10 I think you have played it before..?
Anyway, solid write up.

Ye 10/10 was the previous version of this, but apparently with 4v on wonder you still get good age up time and can squeeze in a bit more eco.

[iNcog]

added to the wall <_<

i'm so slow when it comes to adding stuff to the wall and i know that i've missed a bunch of other threads too

i suck

[Garja]

I'm out of tourney :/ so I updated the first post with new build/ideas for EP 4.0 (hopefully someone good picks the build and profits).