How strong is Spain

[Jaeger]

Given that Spain is the best civ on nilla, I don't get why it would be extremely bad on TAD. These are the nerfs to Spain on TAD as far as I know:

1) Less xp needed on nilla for shipments
2) TP 200w as opposed to 250w
3) Unit shipments slightly worse

I'm gonna comment on all 3 nerfs which don't seem civ breaking:

1) AFAIK the xp difference is only 2%, meaning on nilla spain needs 25% less xp for a shipment where on TAD it needs only 23% less. This seems very unnoticeable, only 2% difference. Most importantly, on both nilla and TAD you have 1 or 2 shipments ready once you hit up.

2) People say that this is an indirect nerf because all civs can get a TP easier, but let's be serious 50w is not that big of a big deal. 50w can easily be gained/lost for anybody by just having slightly better/worse vill micro, slightly better hunts, finding 1 additional treasure, or small things like that. And realistically it just helps the othe civs get up by a couple of seconds. Also, it helps Spain too just as much or even more, as for example when youre getting musk-ruhed you are often just a few resources from being able to send mm.

3) The shipemnt nerfs that I know of are 9, 8, 7, 6 rod shipments all re duced by 1, and 5, 4 lancers reduced by 1. 7 rods>'6 rods doesn't matter much since you can send 8 pike which are almost as good/better anyway. 5-->'4 lancers and 9-->'8 rods sucks, but I can't see a situation occurring often where just 1 lancer or 1 rod decides a game. Also 4 lancers to 3 lancers doesn't seem big anyway, since in 95% of games the game is usually decided by then.


I don't know much about nilla/pre-patch spain, but from what I've been told it was OP, and I just don't see how these small changes can supposedly take it from being extremely strong down to the lowest level.

I think Spain does well in multiple matchups including (but not limited to) Dutch, China, Germany, Russia, and even vs a civ as strong as Brit.

[Durokan]

[quote author="@ovi12" timestamp="1433640015" source="/post/13700/thread"]Given that Spain is the best civ on nilla, I don't get why it would be extremely bad on TAD. These are the nerfs to Spain on TAD as far as I know:

1) Less xp needed on nilla for shipments
2) TP 200w as opposed to 250w
3) Unit shipments slightly worse

I'm gonna comment on all 3 nerfs which don't seem civ breaking:

1) AFAIK the xp difference is only 2%, meaning on nilla spain needs 25% less xp for a shipment where on TAD it needs only 23% less. This seems very unnoticeable, only 2% difference. Most importantly, on both nilla and TAD you have 1 or 2 shipments ready once you hit up.

2) People say that this is an indirect nerf because all civs can get a TP easier, but let's be serious 50w is not that big of a big deal. 50w can easily be gained/lost for anybody by just having slightly better/worse vill micro, slightly better hunts, finding 1 additional treasure, or small things like that. And realistically it just helps the othe civs get up by a couple of seconds. Also, it helps Spain too just as much or even more, as for example when youre getting musk-ruhed you are often just a few resources from being able to send mm.

3) The shipemnt nerfs that I know of are 9, 8, 7, 6 rod shipments all re duced by 1, and 5, 4 lancers reduced by 1. 7 rods>'6 rods doesn't matter much since you can send 8 pike which are almost as good/better anyway. 5-->'4 lancers and 9-->'8 rods sucks, but I can't see a situation occurring often where just 1 lancer or 1 rod decides a game. Also 4 lancers to 3 lancers doesn't seem big anyway, since in 95% of games the game is usually decided by then.


I don't know much about nilla/pre-patch spain, but from what I've been told it was OP, and I just don't see how these small changes can supposedly take it from being extremely strong down to the lowest level.

I think Spain does well in multiple matchups including (but not limited to) Dutch, China, Germany, Russia, and even vs a civ as strong as Brit.

[/quote][span] [/span]In TWC and TAD new civilizations got added that are stronger than most Europeans. This would have decreased the relative power of Spain even had they not been changed whatsoever. The shipment nerfs are terrible for Spain. going from 4-3 lancers changes the shipment from 800 res to 600 res, 600 resources is something you dont want to send in age 2, much less age 3. 3 lancers is fortress is not worth being in the deck, it should be a colonial shipment. 5-4 lancers isn't a huge deal, 800 resources is crappy for fortress age but its not a throw away shipment. One lancer might not be a big deal off of one shipment, but if you send both of them you have two less lancers, 9 lancers is way better than 7, whereas 4 isn't hugely better than 3. Spain is robbed of 400 resources across two shipments. Spain also suffers from a lack of good age up politicians. They have no ranged infantry shipments in any age, unlike any other civ in the entire game, so it is necessary to go to fortress for the once strong military shipments. They do not have a fast fort politician like many of the other euro civs. I did not play vanilla extensively, but i can guess that the 250-200w tp was a nerf to spain because it allows other civs to be able to get a tp early whereas it was exclusively a spanish thing. Spain has no way to boom, no way to mass infantry, no way to age fast, no way to outmass the opponent. In vanilla their unit shipments were good enough they could have a strong timing push. Now that their push isn't nearly as strong, they have no redeemable qualities aside from war dogs.

TL'DR
-Spain's shipments suck after nerf, colonial ones in fortress cost wise which sucks
-Spain's politicians suck
-Spain's eco + boom sucks
-Spain cannot ship ranged units, which sucks
-Spain is not unique with TP's anymore, which sucks
-Spain's relative power decreased with the addition of stronger opponents, which sucks
-War dogs rock

[deleted_user0]

Spain isnt the worst. It should go before russia ports n dutch.

However spain sux on tad vs tad because it cant ff vs iro azzy india japan succesfully cuz those rushes kinda kill them. Its a big difference whether you get 7 rod and 9 lancer or 6 rod and 7 lancer. On top of getting them a bit later (in a ff vs rush, 5 sec can mean win or lose) and tps on tad maps generally being harder to defend. Vs china, the chinese ff in the end has better shipments and same for sioux semi. So they just do worse vs new civs by the nature of their own.

Vs euro civs they dont rank that much worse, but the nerfs are enough to tip mus which were close but in spains favor on nilla in the favor of the other civ on tad.

Fre and ger vs spain was close on nilla, with early tp being an option for fre/ger but not really for spain unless doong a piro, on top of making little difference because the netto change is still in favor of fre/ger, this is huge in these mus. On nilla spaing gets like 2 more shipments by 10m on tad they get like the same with spain being slightly faster only. The fre and ger semi are vastly improved, specially ger one is like a min faster and uhlans are actually good now so the mu is in their favor.

Vs brits im not sure, i think spain should still do well here but again the lancer card nerf is huge here, as well as the upgrade buff meaning that they are more useful and they are more easily sent for brits than for spain.

Otto vs spain was always kinda 50/50 but the slower shipment rate and lancer card nerf is enough to make this mu hopeless kinda, on top of worse tp placement for defense which favors otto cuz theyre generally faster. Tp cost changes little in this mu and piro ff is still scary for otto to deal with.

The other mus i think arent too changed

[Durokan]

Spain isnt the worst. It should go before russia ports n dutch.

However spain sux on tad vs tad because it cant ff vs iro azzy india japan succesfully cuz those rushes kinda kill them. Its a big difference whether you get 7 rod and 9 lancer or 6 rod and 7 lancer. On top of getting them a bit later (in a ff vs rush, 5 sec can mean win or lose) and tps on tad maps generally being harder to defend. Vs china, the chinese ff in the end has better shipments and same for sioux semi. So they just do worse vs new civs by the nature of their own.

Vs euro civs they dont rank that much worse, but the nerfs are enough to tip mus which were close but in spains favor on nilla in the favor of the other civ on tad.

Fre and ger vs spain was close on nilla, with early tp being an option for fre/ger but not really for spain unless doong a piro, on top of making little difference because the netto change is still in favor of fre/ger, this is huge in these mus. On nilla spaing gets like 2 more shipments by 10m on tad they get like the same with spain being slightly faster only. The fre and ger semi are vastly improved, specially ger one is like a min faster and uhlans are actually good now so the mu is in their favor.

Vs brits im not sure, i think spain should still do well here but again the lancer card nerf is huge here, as well as the upgrade buff meaning that they are more useful and they are more easily sent for brits than for spain.

Otto vs spain was always kinda 50/50 but the slower shipment rate and lancer card nerf is enough to make this mu hopeless kinda, on top of worse tp placement for defense which favors otto cuz theyre generally faster. Tp cost changes little in this mu and piro ff is still scary for otto to deal with.

The other mus i think arent too changed

Russia is strong tho :/

[Jaeger]

Spain isnt the worst. It should go before russia ports n dutch.

However spain sux on tad vs tad because it cant ff vs iro azzy india japan succesfully cuz those rushes kinda kill them. Its a big difference whether you get 7 rod and 9 lancer or 6 rod and 7 lancer. On top of getting them a bit later (in a ff vs rush, 5 sec can mean win or lose) and tps on tad maps generally being harder to defend. Vs china, the chinese ff in the end has better shipments and same for sioux semi. So they just do worse vs new civs by the nature of their own.

Vs euro civs they dont rank that much worse, but the nerfs are enough to tip mus which were close but in spains favor on nilla in the favor of the other civ on tad.

Fre and ger vs spain was close on nilla, with early tp being an option for fre/ger but not really for spain unless doong a piro, on top of making little difference because the netto change is still in favor of fre/ger, this is huge in these mus. On nilla spaing gets like 2 more shipments by 10m on tad they get like the same with spain being slightly faster only. The fre and ger semi are vastly improved, specially ger one is like a min faster and uhlans are actually good now so the mu is in their favor.

Vs brits im not sure, i think spain should still do well here but again the lancer card nerf is huge here, as well as the upgrade buff meaning that they are more useful and they are more easily sent for brits than for spain.

Otto vs spain was always kinda 50/50 but the slower shipment rate and lancer card nerf is enough to make this mu hopeless kinda, on top of worse tp placement for defense which favors otto cuz theyre generally faster. Tp cost changes little in this mu and piro ff is still scary for otto to deal with.

The other mus i think arent too changed

Blackstar said spain beats china with really agressive ff.

Also, I hear early TP is good with spain too on 200w but I guess u gotta age with 16.

[deleted_user0]

Its not as nice for spain tho as for other civs. It doesnt gove them much more advantage while it allows the others to close the gap significantly

[Jaeger]

Its not as nice for spain tho as for other civs. It doesnt gove them much more advantage while it allows the others to close the gap significantly

But do yout think french and german can be close on non 200w start? It''s really awkward to think 1 lancer makes the difference between even and hopeless like everybody likes to say.

[Garja]

1 lancer doesnt make any difference, xp boost, bigger treasures and freakin op skirms of nilla do
and even there fre is close to spain

[DerMaxinator]

Nice title you have there Garja

I also think that you should mention that apart from those lancer shipments alls Spain can send (units) is 2 falcs (which are good) and a ton of anticav... So you basically have the one lancer shipment + 2 falcs + 4 (!) anticav shipments... And it kind of sucks, that they don't get to send skirm.

[yemshi]

The 200 wood TP matters for piro FF: no Starting TP.
Also a really greedy spain can do a good boom.
3vills/5vills/4vills/700Wood. It's in some cases good like vs china or any FF but lol aggressive spain (piro FF) can beat China more effectively.
Spain would be 100% better with Quartermaster+Exiled Prince.
They could easily do a semi-ff and just don't send the stuff like 10 pikes.
It'd get still get beaten by fre/ger but, hey with Skirms shipments we'd have a third (and best!) Fre/ger cav semi-ff.
End of Story

[Marco1698]

On tad they are worse than nilla. I think it's because of the cards. I don't think it's so bad on tad but ppl don't use them so much a part piroshiki ahah

[yemshi]

It's SO funny how everyone knows piro and his FF' It's like the most famous strategy in the game!
And the discussions about it are so fun.
A says it's incredibly bad
B says it's the only option to play it.
And both stay their opinion.

[Garja]

I think many don't understand/know that piroshiki FF is just the standard aggressive spain FF (a 2005 thing) tuned down by some questionable decisions (such as tp and 12/10)

[Marco1698]

I think many don''t understand/know that piroshiki FF is just the standard aggressive spain FF (a 2005 thing) tuned down by some questionable decisions (such as tp and 12/10)

Ye garja, but ofc it doesn''t work every game. Aggressive ff is faster than classic ff, but there are many ways to counter it though

[Papist]

Spain is strong when you get to age 3, but it has a very tough time getting there unscathed. Forthis reason, very few people play Spain anymore (unless they do some Age 2 unction bs or something). However, lack of Spanish players means lack of experience in countering them, which in turn leaves many lower-ranking players vulnerable to them.

[[Armag] diarouga]

On general, is it better to send 5v or 8 pikes?
I feel that vs jap, or nilla civs, send 5v makes the timing weak.

[Jaeger]

On general, is it better to send 5v or 8 pikes?
I feel that vs jap, or nilla civs, send 5v makes the timing weak.

5v is just a bit later timing, but vs many civs you can still attack. Usually 5v is for like vs colonial cause it lets you spam constant 5 skirms, and colonial civs mass musk. 8 pike/6 rods is for vs fortress civs like France and Germany, but vs semi ff Japan I would still ship 5v and ship 4 lancers first not falconets.

[[Armag] diarouga]

On general, is it better to send 5v or 8 pikes?
I feel that vs jap, or nilla civs, send 5v makes the timing weak.

5v is just a bit later timing, but vs many civs you can still attack. Usually 5v is for like vs colonial cause it lets you spam constant 5 skirms, and colonial civs mass musk. 8 pike/6 rods is for vs fortress civs like France and Germany, but vs semi ff Japan I would still ship 5v and ship 4 lancers first not falconets.

And let him boom?
Also vs brit, I have hard time, I think 8 pikes is better.

[Jaeger]

5v is just a bit later timing, but vs many civs you can still attack. Usually 5v is for like vs colonial cause it lets you spam constant 5 skirms, and colonial civs mass musk. 8 pike/6 rods is for vs fortress civs like France and Germany, but vs semi ff Japan I would still ship 5v and ship 4 lancers first not falconets.

And let him boom?
Also vs brit, I have hard time, I think 8 pikes is better.

He also lets you mass skirms. Try it, you have to micro really well against the musk and cav no make the cannons very effective, and ideally you want to fight when you have 4 lancers (2 falcs>'12pike>'4 lancers), and if you do it right sometimes what happens is your 20 pike slaughter the cav as they try to get cannons, and your 20 skirms+4 lancers+5 musk+5 dogs do crazy damage to all the musks trying to focus on one cannon, and you get off like 4-6 cannon shots total since they take usually 2 shots to kill a cannon.

[deleted_user0]

Are there any match ups spain colonial should be played? Versus sioux perhaps?

[Jaeger]

Are there any match ups spain colonial should be played? Versus sioux perhaps?

Vs aztec I do 5 or 10 rod semi ff and maybe a few bows with 6 rod shipment and sometimes CM while im going fortress, 700w 5v 700g 6 rods CM, TP from 700w and age tower.
Everybody expects you to ff and push early but they just get raped by 5 rod trap with mm and OP dogs.

[princeofkabul]

Are there any match ups spain colonial should be played? Versus sioux perhaps?

Vs aztec I do 5 or 10 rod semi ff and maybe a few bows with 6 rod shipment and sometimes CM while im going fortress, 700w 5v 700g 6 rods CM, TP from 700w and age tower.
Everybody expects you to ff and push early but they just get raped by 5 rod trap with mm and OP dogs.

Onko kiva kun nyyp?t neuvoo? Itell? ainakin palaa k?py v?lill? t?n foorumin nyyppiin ja niitten mahti neuvoihin.

[yemshi]

lol

[[Armag] diarouga]

Vs aztec I do 5 or 10 rod semi ff and maybe a few bows with 6 rod shipment and sometimes CM while im going fortress, 700w 5v 700g 6 rods CM, TP from 700w and age tower.
Everybody expects you to ff and push early but they just get raped by 5 rod trap with mm and OP dogs.

Onko kiva kun nyyp?t neuvoo? Itell? ainakin palaa k?py v?lill? t?n foorumin nyyppiin ja niitten mahti neuvoihin.

?

[yemshi]

lol again