Spice trade as Ports

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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by Hazza54321 »

Kaiserklein wrote:
pecelot wrote:Well, exactly? That's what I meant. I don't see a better equivalent for refrigeration, and arguably you can put ranged inf att instead of royal mint, but I don't like it either.

"I guess you can fit at least on of these cards into a French deck, too" => I say, not just "at least one", but actually all in bold, and others most likely too.

Jerom wrote:wut? I consider 7 skirms a pretty great card tbh.

Well since you already shipped 8 skirms, in most cases you don't send this card. It used to be sent with dirty 3sw/700g german ff for example, because you didn't build a rax until long into the game and chopped obscene amounts of wood for houses. But in the current meta, you usually age up with a rax ready, and usually even squeeze 1000w into your build, so you basically don't chop wood, which means you can mass much more out of your rax. So I don't see why 7 skirms would be a great card. For sure it's a card I would send if I need skirms badly after having already shipped 8, but otherwise no reason to ship this, an upgrade/crates would imo be better in most cases

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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by sdsanft »

7 skirms is good I'd say, but you definitely don't need skirm attack, with two skirm hp cards available in age 2 you don't need another in fortress.
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by pecelot »

Kaiserklein wrote:
pecelot wrote:Well, exactly? That's what I meant. I don't see a better equivalent for refrigeration, and arguably you can put ranged inf att instead of royal mint, but I don't like it either.

"I guess you can fit at least on of these cards into a French deck, too" => I say, not just "at least one", but actually all in bold, and others most likely too.

By one of these cards I meant either refrigeration or royal mint, and then described a typical French deck for age 3.

Kaiserklein wrote:
Jerom wrote:wut? I consider 7 skirms a pretty great card tbh.

Well since you already shipped 8 skirms, in most cases you don't send this card. It used to be sent with dirty 3sw/700g german ff for example, because you didn't build a rax until long into the game and chopped obscene amounts of wood for houses. But in the current meta, you usually age up with a rax ready, and usually even squeeze 1000w into your build, so you basically don't chop wood, which means you can mass much more out of your rax. So I don't see why 7 skirms would be a great card. For sure it's a card I would send if I need skirms badly after having already shipped 8, but otherwise no reason to ship this, an upgrade/crates would imo be better in most cases


But then again, what instead?
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by Kaiserklein »

1000w/1000g/8 skirms/7 skirms/5 goons/3 cuirs/2 falcs/cav combat/refrigeration/royal mint
This is, I think, my standard french age 3 deck. I didn't say I don't use 7 skirms, just it's imo the most arguable card in this. If I had to remove a card to put for exemple a frigate for a water deck, I think it would be 7 skirms. Some people will put 4 goons instead of 7 skirms (I don't like it but it's debatable). Some will put ranged infantry attack... And I probably forgot some other possible cards
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by sdsanft »

Kaiserklein wrote:1000w/1000g/8 skirms/7 skirms/5 goons/3 cuirs/2 falcs/cav combat/refrigeration/royal mint
This is, I think, my standard french age 3 deck. I didn't say I don't use 7 skirms, just it's imo the most arguable card in this. If I had to remove a card to put for exemple a frigate for a water deck, I think it would be 7 skirms. Some people will put 4 goons instead of 7 skirms (I don't like it but it's debatable). Some will put ranged infantry attack... And I probably forgot some other possible cards

I have black riders in some of my decks. I like it for when my hunts run out but i still have buttloads of coin.
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by momuuu »

Well royal mint is honestly the first card Id cut from that list for a tech card. But not on water maps because those games tend to go into lategame more often. Tbh I feel like 95% of games, if not more, is decided by the time hunts and mines run out because one player will be able to secure the last hunts and mines, in which case royal mint and refrigeration become extremely situational cards. Id rather just put in a mill card in age 1 or age 2. Eco theory is basically the same shipment too so thats also a potential replacement which you run anyways.

But maybe my playstyle is a bit more aggressive due to playing dutch which is a civ that cant really do well in the ultra lategame stage where you have mills and plantations (and actually have a strong timing before that because they dont need to get plantations).
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by Kaiserklein »

sdsanft wrote:I have black riders in some of my decks. I like it for when my hunts run out but i still have buttloads of coin.

Tbh black riders are really bad to send if you're not germany. It's a big risk to take to send them, because they cost 1000g and need 1 min to come on the field. On the other hand, what do they bring you ? Goons with no range resist instead of your 30% (or 20% on ep) range resist dragoons, as france ? Goons just do a better job than black riders in ranged fights, they're more cost effective.

Black riders are essentially war wagons, but with a good shooting animation. Approx same attack, same cost, same hp. That's why you send them as germany, because they can kite so much better than wws, while not really presenting any significant drawbacks compare to those. And also because you get 2 free blackriders instead of 3 free uhlans, which is ofc really, really good. But when you're not ger, then they don't do a better job than goons, and you don't get any extra blackriders, so no reason to take the risk to send them tbh.

Jerom wrote:Well royal mint is honestly the first card Id cut from that list for a tech card. But not on water maps because those games tend to go into lategame more often. Tbh I feel like 95% of games, if not more, is decided by the time hunts and mines run out because one player will be able to secure the last hunts and mines, in which case royal mint and refrigeration become extremely situational cards. Id rather just put in a mill card in age 1 or age 2. Eco theory is basically the same shipment too so thats also a potential replacement which you run anyways.

But maybe my playstyle is a bit more aggressive due to playing dutch which is a civ that cant really do well in the ultra lategame stage where you have mills and plantations (and actually have a strong timing before that because they dont need to get plantations).

Well, royal mint gives +25% boost, while refrigeration gives +20%. Also when you switch to plantations in age 3, you only have 1 upgrade and it's really bad (600 res for 10% lol... Don't even research it tbh), so the +25% really makes sense. It's a real 25%. On mills, you already have 130% gathering rate (because upgrades are cheaper and available in fortress), and you go up to 150% with refrigeration, which is effectively a 15% boost, much worse than 25%. But then, it all depends on your civ, if you're really heavy on food then yeah refrigeration is better. But if you do 60% food/40% coin on mills and plantations, I think royal mint is better.

I doubt 95% of the games are decided by resources btw. Probs less than half. Just check the tourney games, how many times do you see people fighting over the last hunt/last goldmine, or even just doing an all-in timing push to break a forward base when they're out of resources ? Do you see so many times people switching to crossbows because they have no gold, or people pushing with both army and vils at the same time to take the map because they have absolutely no resources in base ? When it happens, everyone actually says "WOW this was really a gg, so much action, so intense" - because it doesn't happen so often. Most of the time, it's just people losing fights, regardless of where they're gathering.

Putting a mill card or plantation card has nothing to do with royal mint or refrigeration. What makes those cards interesting is that they affect all food and coin, which means you can send it early because it will affect your hunts/gold mines, without thinking "god they will become useless when I run out of resources". It's why it's not just lategame cards, but eco cards, like you can send 4 vils in age 2 or sth.
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by momuuu »

With 95% I also meant those games that end before the matiral res are out stage. Its probably more like 99% tbh.

I dont think sth like refrigeration is a good eco card if you see it as just a vill shipment in a huge percentage of games. Its effect is not worth enough as a fortress card imo.
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well when I'm france and there is no fight going on, I'm not going to ship 7 skirms just to watch them chill in the sun. If I don't need military units at a given point then I don't ship them. Don't see why people always spam military in fortress, and never send any in colo, it works the same. Actually you have even more reasons to not ship military in fortress, because it's later in the game ; and the later you go, the less value military shipments have, and the more value upgrades have.
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by deleted_user »

Spice trade is good only if you are sure to not get rushed.. also its confusing to see how everyone changed their approach against this card... its not that bad for ports, goodspeed was a fanatic of it and i remember him sending thish %99.9 times they only have point it doesnt effect to late game directly bu games generally end up before indrustial anyway
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by pecelot »

One cannot really deny such discussions tend to be usually of little relevance, though it's always better to have these cards in your deck just in case. My main argument here would be: what would you have instead? :hmm:
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by forgrin »

Fortress resource crates are the new meta. If you just prepare macro-wise for it then 1k coin can be incredibly effective if not pressured very hard IMO. Unless your opponent is literally on your TC, crates are probably always better than unit shipments and even fortress eco ups.
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by pecelot »

Yes, they are being sent and are already in the suggested decks (unless you propose sending 1000 food as well :O).
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by forgrin »

pecelot wrote:Yes, they are being sent and are already in the suggested decks (unless you propose sending 1000 food as well :O).

Well as Spain 1k food might actually be good tbh. It's not like they have other amazing fortress shipments to send after 5 lancer / 2 falc.
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by pecelot »

5 huss? 12 pikes? 9 rods? 1kw? even cav combat?
but well, you could fit it in there, I guess, Spain lacks 1k coin, so why not... :O
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by forgrin »

pecelot wrote:5 huss? 12 pikes? 9 rods? 1kw? even cav combat?
but well, you could fit it in there, I guess, Spain lacks 1k coin, so why not... :O

I personally think 12 pike is bad unless you're being super aggressive. Otherwise they just group with your rods and slow them down. Huss are kinda in the same boat I think because lancers are just much better for Spain's composition in mid fortress.

As you say Spain doesn't have 1k coin, so you have the spot to put it in. For an aggro FF, where Spain lacks alot of eco follow-up, it could give them extra pushing power that something like 1kw doesn't (even though 1kw is more vs).
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by Jaeger »

forgrin wrote:
pecelot wrote:5 huss? 12 pikes? 9 rods? 1kw? even cav combat?
but well, you could fit it in there, I guess, Spain lacks 1k coin, so why not... :O

I personally think 12 pike is bad unless you're being super aggressive. Otherwise they just group with your rods and slow them down. Huss are kinda in the same boat I think because lancers are just much better for Spain's composition in mid fortress.

As you say Spain doesn't have 1k coin, so you have the spot to put it in. For an aggro FF, where Spain lacks alot of eco follow-up, it could give them extra pushing power that something like 1kw doesn't (even though 1kw is more vs).

12 pike is essential if youre going to push early fortress with falcs.
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by sdsanft »

Isn't 1k food an arguable card for ports. I think I remember @Jerom saying that once, but maybe not
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by forgrin »

ovi12 wrote:
forgrin wrote:
pecelot wrote:5 huss? 12 pikes? 9 rods? 1kw? even cav combat?
but well, you could fit it in there, I guess, Spain lacks 1k coin, so why not... :O

I personally think 12 pike is bad unless you're being super aggressive. Otherwise they just group with your rods and slow them down. Huss are kinda in the same boat I think because lancers are just much better for Spain's composition in mid fortress.

As you say Spain doesn't have 1k coin, so you have the spot to put it in. For an aggro FF, where Spain lacks alot of eco follow-up, it could give them extra pushing power that something like 1kw doesn't (even though 1kw is more vs).

12 pike is essential if youre going to push early fortress with falcs.


"I personally think 12 pike is bad unless you're being super aggressive." Copy-pasted from my post above.
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Re: Spice trade as Ports

Post by Jaeger »

forgrin wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
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12 pike is essential if youre going to push early fortress with falcs.


"I personally think 12 pike is bad unless you're being super aggressive." Copy-pasted from my post above.


Pushing with 2 falcs early fortress is not super agressive tho, its standard. Its probably what you should always do unless youre going ATP
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