german vs china

[Jaeger]

You don''t want to send 1000w so early. You are early in fortress and thus you send unit shipments to fight...What is the point of spending 2200 resources by aging up, if you are only going to send resources again?

German is not like french where you send 1k wood to boom from 2 or 3 TC. Germany good analogy is that germany sends 1k wood to mass like how french sends 1k gold to mass. With germany you actually need the 1k wood for houses and such because your units and your vills are not as pop efficient as france, and you have more units anyway. Sending 1k wood is good with germany, and then the 4 unit shipmnets. If you get almagation and 2nd TP, by your third unit shipment you are pretty much unstoppable. Like I said, you either go for units first and try to pressure early, or you go for mid fortress push, and I think germany has best mass out of all the civs in the game mid fortress (12 mins) if u ship 1k wood first. Plus, if you age with 500f and then do fast age you are up at 6:40 with a shipment ready so your wood will be there at like 7:20 and you will have 7 uhlans already just from shipments. But like I said, I would prefer to even send 700w then 1k wood, as I listed in the last post how much wood germany needs.

[fei123456]

You dont want to send 1000w so early. You are early in fortress and thus you send unit shipments to fight...What is the point of spending 2200 resources by aging up, if you are only going to send resources again?

German is not like french where you send 1k wood to boom from 2 or 3 TC. Germany good analogy is that germany sends 1k wood to mass like how french sends 1k gold to mass. With germany you actually need the 1k wood for houses and such because your units and your vills are not as pop efficient as france, and you have more units anyway. Sending 1k wood is good with germany, and then the 4 unit shipmnets. If you get almagation and 2nd TP, by your third unit shipment you are pretty much unstoppable. Like I said, you either go for units first and try to pressure early, or you go for mid fortress push, and I think germany has best mass out of all the civs in the game mid fortress (12 mins) if u ship 1k wood first. Plus, if you age with 500f and then do fast age you are up at 6:40 with a shipment ready so your wood will be there at like 7:20 and you will have 7 uhlans already just from shipments. But like I said, I would prefer to even send 700w then 1k wood, as I listed in the last post how much wood germany needs.

if you have an uhlan semiff, your 7-9 uhlans can hurt chinas eco. straight ff cant do that.
besides, china may rush you in age 2 lol. straight ff german cant deal with that.

[Jaeger]

German is not like french where you send 1k wood to boom from 2 or 3 TC. Germany good analogy is that germany sends 1k wood to mass like how french sends 1k gold to mass. With germany you actually need the 1k wood for houses and such because your units and your vills are not as pop efficient as france, and you have more units anyway. Sending 1k wood is good with germany, and then the 4 unit shipmnets. If you get almagation and 2nd TP, by your third unit shipment you are pretty much unstoppable. Like I said, you either go for units first and try to pressure early, or you go for mid fortress push, and I think germany has best mass out of all the civs in the game mid fortress (12 mins) if u ship 1k wood first. Plus, if you age with 500f and then do fast age you are up at 6:40 with a shipment ready so your wood will be there at like 7:20 and you will have 7 uhlans already just from shipments. But like I said, I would prefer to even send 700w then 1k wood, as I listed in the last post how much wood germany needs.

if you have an uhlan semiff, your 7-9 uhlans can hurt chinas eco. straight ff cant do that.
besides, china may rush you in age 2 lol. straight ff german cant deal with that.

Its super easy to scout rush, if china has ANY vills on wood in transition 99% of the time its gonna be rush. Also, I watched H2os stream he was playing vs garja and garjas uhlans didnt do jack shit, sure they idled some vills but TC fire is very cost efficient. Vs good player I dont think you can accomplish much with the uhlans.

[fei123456]

if you have an uhlan semiff, your 7-9 uhlans can hurt chinas eco. straight ff cant do that.
besides, china may rush you in age 2 lol. straight ff german cant deal with that.

Its super easy to scout rush, if china has ANY vills on wood in transition 99% of the time its gonna be rush. Also, I watched H2os stream he was playing vs garja and garjas uhlans didnt do jack shit, sure they idled some vills but TC fire is very cost efficient. Vs good player I dont think you can accomplish much with the uhlans.

yeah you can scout if china goes for an age 2 play, but WHAT CAN YOU DO with 500f age up? you have 0 wood when you hit age 2, cant spam any units. chop a lot for a stable/rax? or send 700w first? or something else?
besides, tc cant kill uhlans easily: it has 90 ranged attack, and deals 63 to uhlan. 63*3=189, but uhlan has 190 hp lol.
tc kills uhlan with 4 hits, and kills a hussar with 5 hits.

[Jaeger]

Its super easy to scout rush, if china has ANY vills on wood in transition 99% of the time its gonna be rush. Also, I watched H2os stream he was playing vs garja and garjas uhlans didnt do jack shit, sure they idled some vills but TC fire is very cost efficient. Vs good player I dont think you can accomplish much with the uhlans.

yeah you can scout if china goes for an age 2 play, but WHAT CAN YOU DO with 500f age up? you have 0 wood when you hit age 2, cant spam any units. chop a lot for a stable/rax? or send 700w first? or something else?
besides, tc cant kill uhlans easily: it has 90 ranged attack, and deals 63 to uhlan. 63*3=189, but uhlan has 190 hp lol.
tc kills uhlan with 4 hits, and kills a hussar with 5 hits.

Never tried it, but probably sending 8 bows first and quickly putting all vills on wood works fine, I dont think china rush is very powerful. If Im wrong and you cant hold, then just age up with 400w and ship 3 SW then 700w, in that case youre definately safe. If you dont make any uhlans you will probably be up at like 7:15, so you still have the option to send 1k wood if youre safe (which you should be)


You shoot an uhlan 3 times with a TC then retarget the TC and use a vill to shoot the 1 hp uhlan or use explorer. You can even do this preemptively, shoot as many uhlans as you can with vills before you garrison them, then just micro your TC.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Rush doesn't matter, but vs a ff you just do nothing.

[jsimons1289]

Ovi for higher level play your strat isn't that efficient in my view. No decent player is going to sit off China, not pressure and then hope for the best later in the game with a huge fight. You're giving China too many options and your 500f to sacrifice eco and get to age 3 quicker, just to then send 1000 wood and not attack for 5 mins+ doesn't really work. I would always build defensive and go age IV vs this, or rush you in age 2 as you can't do anything about it (or at least kill your TP, kill some houses, and age on the back of some pressure). There's too many options for China as you've limited yourself to one build.

Also, don't just focus on what the uhlans kill. You've watched some high level recs and made a comment that the uhlan were useless because they didn't kill any vills and the vills could be garrisoned. Garrisoning vills obviously slows down the age up (e.g. if you scout a straight FF push on the vills building the wonder), which gives you an advantage. If you semi-uhlan, which I'm not saying is always the perfect strat, it also does some more subtle things which you can't see directly from the stream/recording.

For example, it will make your opponent conscious of raids and they have to focus on the mini-map a little. It will commit them them to cav/anti-cav as shipments/first military batches because they know you have cav (if you want to ship skirm first in age 3 and then push, then making him make anti-cav is to your advantage). It will contain the player - they can't forward village, herd new hunts in front of base etc. and whilst this might not help immediately (i.e. they still have hunt/gold in base), it can set you up for later in the game.

You need to start thinking this way to force a player to do what you want them to do, and so you're in control of the MU. If you just stay in base, mass for 10 mins then go in for a 200 pop fight at 15mins, you haven't played a decent strategy (you haven't directed the other player's strategy in your favour), you're just going for one big fight where luck can play a huge part.

[[Armag] diarouga]

German wins it. Watch veni vs naga.

[princeofkabul]

German wins it. Watch veni vs naga.

sigh.

[fei123456]

so veni beat nagayumi once on a certain map = german wins china?

[Mitoe]

I pretty much agree with the principle behind Ovi's play. In general I don't think making a lot of uhlans in age 2 will do anything against a decent player with solid village placement. Sure, you can force him to garrison, you can even force him to call sentries maybe, but this doesn't matter so much as you will not be winning the game by forcing these things anyway, in fact you may even be losing if you don't play it really well. I would probably do something like TP age 1 no matter what, as Ovi said (unless it's 200f 100w 100c with no food/wood treasures near by, as this is the worst possible crate spawn for TP start) because the extra shipments you get are more important than the 25 seconds you lose by aging with 18 vills instead of 17 vills, and the extra villager in transition helps cover the extra resources you need to reach the fortress age anyway, so you actually reach fortress at a very very similar time as if you were to do 17 vills.

Age with 400w, ship 3 SW 700w (or if you got insane xp treasures or something, maybe even 3 SW 2 SW 700w, though 3 SW 700w 1000w works fine too), make anywhere between 0 to 3 uhlans, depending on how safe his town looks, and then ship fortress units and mass skirm/uhlan with 5 or so WW depending on how much cav he's making. You need the WW because Chinese cav is just insane vs uhlans, but making too many is no good either.

[princeofkabul]

I pretty much agree with the principle behind Ovi''s play. In general I don''t think making a lot of uhlans in age 2 will do anything against a decent player with solid village placement. Sure, you can force him to garrison, you can even force him to call sentries maybe, but this doesn''t matter so much as you will not be winning the game by forcing these things anyway, in fact you may even be losing if you don''t play it really well. I would probably do something like TP age 1 no matter what, as Ovi said (unless it''s 200f 100w 100c with no food/wood treasures near by, as this is the worst possible crate spawn for TP start) because the extra shipments you get are more important than the 25 seconds you lose by aging with 18 vills instead of 17 vills, and the extra villager in transition helps cover the extra resources you need to reach the fortress age anyway, so you actually reach fortress at a very very similar time as if you were to do 17 vills.

Age with 400w, ship 3 SW 700w (or if you got insane xp treasures or something, maybe even 3 SW 2 SW 700w, though 3 SW 700w 1000w works fine too), make anywhere between 0 to 3 uhlans, depending on how safe his town looks, and then ship fortress units and mass skirm/uhlan with 5 or so WW depending on how much cav he''s making. You need the WW because Chinese cav is just insane vs uhlans, but making too many is no good either.

and you''ll drown to the china mass.

[jsimons1289]

I pretty much agree with the principle behind Ovi''s play. In general I don''t think making a lot of uhlans in age 2 will do anything against a decent player with solid village placement. Sure, you can force him to garrison, you can even force him to call sentries maybe, but this doesn''t matter so much as you will not be winning the game by forcing these things anyway, in fact you may even be losing if you don''t play it really well. I would probably do something like TP age 1 no matter what, as Ovi said (unless it''s 200f 100w 100c with no food/wood treasures near by, as this is the worst possible crate spawn for TP start) because the extra shipments you get are more important than the 25 seconds you lose by aging with 18 vills instead of 17 vills, and the extra villager in transition helps cover the extra resources you need to reach the fortress age anyway, so you actually reach fortress at a very very similar time as if you were to do 17 vills.

Age with 400w, ship 3 SW 700w (or if you got insane xp treasures or something, maybe even 3 SW 2 SW 700w, though 3 SW 700w 1000w works fine too), make anywhere between 0 to 3 uhlans, depending on how safe his town looks, and then ship fortress units and mass skirm/uhlan with 5 or so WW depending on how much cav he''s making. You need the WW because Chinese cav is just insane vs uhlans, but making too many is no good either.

Well you changed pretty much all of Ovi''s arguments' age with 400w rather than 500f, don''t make a TP with 100w/100c and no wood treasures, and when you''re up use the fortress military units. Please don''t try to find a way to argue 1000w is viable as your first fortress shipment.

I think people really underestimate just how annoying China''s mass is. China forces you to have a decent composition, and essentially China just needs to use it''s musk effectively, whereas the German has to micro insanely. So for the average player, and a straight up early FF fight, China wins.

[fei123456]

I pretty much agree with the principle behind Ovi''s play. In general I don''t think making a lot of uhlans in age 2 will do anything against a decent player with solid village placement. Sure, you can force him to garrison, you can even force him to call sentries maybe, but this doesn''t matter so much as you will not be winning the game by forcing these things anyway, in fact you may even be losing if you don''t play it really well. I would probably do something like TP age 1 no matter what, as Ovi said (unless it''s 200f 100w 100c with no food/wood treasures near by, as this is the worst possible crate spawn for TP start) because the extra shipments you get are more important than the 25 seconds you lose by aging with 18 vills instead of 17 vills, and the extra villager in transition helps cover the extra resources you need to reach the fortress age anyway, so you actually reach fortress at a very very similar time as if you were to do 17 vills.

Age with 400w, ship 3 SW 700w (or if you got insane xp treasures or something, maybe even 3 SW 2 SW 700w, though 3 SW 700w 1000w works fine too), make anywhere between 0 to 3 uhlans, depending on how safe his town looks, and then ship fortress units and mass skirm/uhlan with 5 or so WW depending on how much cav he''s making. You need the WW because Chinese cav is just insane vs uhlans, but making too many is no good either.

usually i send 3 sw - 700 g - 700w for an uhlan semi. if china has a naked ff, sending 8 skirm 7 skirm with mass veteran uhlan is available. but if he semi ff, i may send 1000w for tp/barrack and veteran dopple. uhlan + dopple +skirm does well with age 3 china units.

[fei123456]

I pretty much agree with the principle behind Ovis play. In general I dont think making a lot of uhlans in age 2 will do anything against a decent player with solid village placement. Sure, you can force him to garrison, you can even force him to call sentries maybe, but this doesnt matter so much as you will not be winning the game by forcing these things anyway, in fact you may even be losing if you dont play it really well. I would probably do something like TP age 1 no matter what, as Ovi said (unless its 200f 100w 100c with no food/wood treasures near by, as this is the worst possible crate spawn for TP start) because the extra shipments you get are more important than the 25 seconds you lose by aging with 18 vills instead of 17 vills, and the extra villager in transition helps cover the extra resources you need to reach the fortress age anyway, so you actually reach fortress at a very very similar time as if you were to do 17 vills.

Age with 400w, ship 3 SW 700w (or if you got insane xp treasures or something, maybe even 3 SW 2 SW 700w, though 3 SW 700w 1000w works fine too), make anywhere between 0 to 3 uhlans, depending on how safe his town looks, and then ship fortress units and mass skirm/uhlan with 5 or so WW depending on how much cav hes making. You need the WW because Chinese cav is just insane vs uhlans, but making too many is no good either.

Well you changed pretty much all of Ovis arguments' age with 400w rather than 500f, dont make a TP with 100w/100c and no wood treasures, and when youre up use the fortress military units. Please dont try to find a way to argue 1000w is viable as your first fortress shipment.

I think people really underestimate just how annoying Chinas mass is. China forces you to have a decent composition, and essentially China just needs to use its musk effectively, whereas the German has to micro insanely. So for the average player, and a straight up early FF fight, China wins.

yeah uhlan semi is available. but a few uhlans may not hurt china THAT much. dont overestimate them.
and with age 3 china, you can have a tpboom on some maps, and veteran uhlan+dopple+skirm+jaeger is great. china can mass tons of shit easily, but dopples with uhlans kill them all. (out of gold? gg wp)

[jsimons1289]

Well some people should try it out and post some recs!

[Garja]

help from audience
http://aoe3.jpcommunity.com/aoe3/commun ... wmode=flat

[iNcog]

I read this thread from work, interesting read


edit: the replay garja linked to is a gg

thanks for sharing

hmm

i guess china against germany is pretty even, slightly german favored thanks to dopps i guess

since in the first fight, i saw the doppels fighting arqubusiers and the uhlans fighting chinese cav o_o

[princeofkabul]

German wins it. Watch veni vs naga.

I also watched veni win as spain vs india in that series, I guess spain beats india according to your logic?

33

[Mitoe]

Well you changed pretty much all of Ovi's arguments' age with 400w rather than 500f, don't make a TP with 100w/100c and no wood treasures, and when you're up use the fortress military units.

The only thing I changed about Ovi's argument was the 400w thing??which, by the way, he HAD already mentioned. I never said you can't do TP start with 100c' Germany always has 4 or 5 resource crates, which consist of either 2 or 3 food crates, 100w, and 1 random crate. So on 300f 100w 100c starts, I think you can still do TP first. You can even do TP first on 200f 100w 100c, but you'd be better confirming you'll have livestock or treasures to use to expedite your age up or wood gathering.

Additionally, the strategy I gave was pretty generic, a summary of a general PLAN I would use when playing vs China. The only reason I said to ship military in age 3 was because in the build I gave I already had 700w.

Please don't try to find a way to argue 1000w is viable as your first fortress shipment.

I think you underestimate just how strong 1000w is as a card. I do think it's totally viable as your first card in fortress (so long as they're not going for some kind of timing push or something), and often should be. Not for a TC, but for houses, rax/stable, market techs (if you don't already have them, which you should), and vet uhlan. It really is an amazing shipment for Germany, whether you believe me or not

[[Armag] diarouga]

German wins it. Watch veni vs naga.

I also watched veni win as spain vs india in that series, I guess spain beats india according to your logic

The spain vs india was a bad game, naga didnt play this MU well. However, his chinese are very good.

[jsimons1289]

Someone test the MU and record some games. I tried recently and China won but didn't rec the games, and I pushed at the wrong time. Countering the mass ball of assorted units that come at you really isn't all that easy though...

[deleted_user0]

I also watched veni win as spain vs india in that series, I guess spain beats india according to your logic?

The spain vs india was a bad game, naga didnt play this MU well. However, his chinese are very good.

His india is also good. Its obv he just didnt care